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Food, Health & Fitness => The Green Apple and the Very Brite Orange => Topic started by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 11:22 am



Title: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 11:22 am
This is a very interesting, non-biased article on pros and cosn of vegan diet

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full

This is a relevant excerpt:

Quote
Vegan diets are usually higher in dietary fiber, magnesium, folic acid, vitamins C and E, iron, and phytochemicals, and they tend to be lower in calories, saturated fat and cholesterol, long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B-12 (8).

B12 is the real concern, vitamin D and calcium a secondary concern, omega-3 I don't know really, zinc we saw can be provided by nuts and above all pumpkin seeds. Proteins, which are not cited in the study, are abundant in legumes and some nuts.

Quote
) To avoid B-12 deficiency, vegans should regularly consume vitamin B-12–fortified foods, such as fortified soy and rice beverages, certain breakfast cereals and meat analogs, and B-12–fortified nutritional yeast, or take a daily vitamin B-12 supplement. Fermented soy products, leafy vegetables, and seaweed cannot be considered a reliable source of active vitamin B-12. No unfortified plant food contains any significant amount of active vitamin B-12.


2) To ensure adequate calcium in the diet, calcium-fortified plant foods should be regularly consumed in addition to consuming the traditional calcium sources for a vegan (green leafy vegetables, tofu, tahini). The calcium-fortified foods include ready-to-eat cereals, calcium-fortified soy and rice beverages, calcium-fortified orange and apple juices, and other beverages. The bioavailability of the calcium carbonate in the soy beverages and the calcium citrate malate in apple or orange juice is similar to that of the calcium in milk (78, 79). Tricalcium phosphate–fortified soy milk was shown to have a slightly lower calcium bioavailability than the calcium in cow milk (78).


3) To ensure an adequate vitamin D status, especially during the winter, vegans must regularly consume vitamin D–fortified foods such as soy milk, rice milk, orange juice, breakfast cereals, and margarines that are fortified with vitamin D. Where fortified foods are unavailable, a daily supplement of 5–10 μg vitamin D would be necessary. The supplement would be highly desirable for elderly vegans.


4) A vegan should regularly consume plant foods naturally rich in the n–3 fatty acid ALA, such as ground flaxseed, walnuts, canola oil, soy products, and hemp seed–based beverages. In addition, it is recommended that vegans consume foods that are fortified with the long-chain n–3 fatty acid DHA, such as some soy milks and cereal bars. Those with increased requirements of long-chain n–3 fatty acids, such as pregnant and lactating women, would benefit from using DHA-rich microalgae supplements.


5) Because of the high phytate content of a typical vegan diet, it is important that a vegan consume foods that are rich in zinc, such as whole grains, legumes, and soy products, to provide a sufficient zinc intake. Benefit could also be obtained by vegans consuming fortified ready-to-eat cereals and other zinc-fortified foods.



Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 11:26 am
From the above, it results evident that a vegan must take B12 in fortified foods or supplements, unless he/she is willing to eat regularly food contaminated by fecal matter.

Vitamin D may be critical in highn latitudes

Calcium may be critical if not careful in choosing food

Omega-3 might be critical (true in lacto-ovo as well)

Iron and zinc are marginally critical if careful in choosing food (above all pumpkin seeds, spinachs, and so on)

The issue of non-heme iron appears in many sources to be almost judged as overstated. That is, vegetarians, if choose food adequately, if combine vitamin C with iron sources, are not iron-deficient.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 11:31 am
Again, from the above, it descends that a vegan diet is not a natural diet for the human being.

Since we are not living in a natural environment no more at least, taking supplements is a viable alternative.

The other alternative is to accept some cruelty inflicted to animals who did absolutely nothing to us.

My personal decision, right now, is to accept the cruelty. and eat milk and derivated products. This is mostly due to the fact that my present condition of minimal hunger and mild aversion to legumes might give rise to dietary  deficiencies without significant supplementation. Deficiencies in proteins might be also an ensue in my case, although I'm not perfectly sure about this.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 14, 2015 01:02 pm
Mccoy, a good vegan diet is much healthier than you may think.   We don't have to accept the cruelty !!   You may find this video interesting …….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPTniEYdetY



Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 14, 2015 02:43 pm
Although I find your info of interest..... i want to mention a couple things mccoy. Perhaps it is much different in Italy than living in the states. In Cloneland we have many nutrition drinks. Admittedly many of them have dairy products in them. I just drank a slim fast that is only 10 fluid ounces. It has 35% minimum daily requirement of B12 and 15% of zinc. Leila convinced me to go back to my vegan diet. Which to me means - no dairy foods - So unless I am eating out i have stopped eating cheese, cottage cheese, eggs, yogurt, milk etc. I haven't touched meat or chicken in over 40 years. Fish only very very rarely and only if there is nothing else to eat. But i have yet to give up my vitamin fortified drinks which are loaded with minerals and vitamins. Perhaps some day they will have such drinks labeled vegan as well. But for now drinks like Bolthouse juices do have a limited amount of dairy products in them. Although I am leaning stronger towards the health drinks that are mostly, if not all, soy based.

I believe there was a reason that Krishna ate cheese and dairy products. But that was a different period i doubt very seriously that he would have supported an industry bent on cruelty. People seemed to have lived more in harmony with nature at that time and the Gopi ' s , with Krishna, took care of their own animals that fed them. This is my take on that period.

We are only beginning to recignize how the Christian Bible has so much conditioned us that we are blocked from the influence of other great religions. Here in Cloneland a good portion of the billboards have quotes from the Bible with references. So tell me friend... What will you choose eternity in hell or heaven? Jesus is coming soon. Make your choice now. Hell is REAL.

p.s. If Peter butchered fish we can too. If Jesus said bring the fattened calf... lets slaughter  and kill it and celebrate and have a feast . We can too. Rite? Just read the Bible you'll see.. eating meat was accepted. Look... i am so sick of having that book crammed down my throat that i hope I never meet another so called Christian again. Their thoughts are so one dimensional that they appear like a flat surface with no sides. I can't even imagine why we have problems with Arab nations and are at war with them!!!!!! We are coming into a new age.; The dwapara yuga let us put old ways aside and move forward out of the kali yuga.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 09:06 pm
Mccoy, a good vegan diet is much healthier than you may think.   We don't have to accept the cruelty !!   You may find this video interesting …….

Thanks for the video, I enjoyed it, nice man Jim Morris.

I've practiced a vegan diet twice in my life.

First time around, it was 8 months. Very strict, no exceptions. I also ruled out tea, coffe, chocolate, any spices, salt.
I eventually lost the interest for food and started loosing weight. Health was good. I had no lusty thoughts whatsoever. I became practically asexual and I loved that. But the loss of weight started to concern me. I've never been overweight.

2nd time round, it was a real disaster. Raw veganism. I was convinced I could live on prana. I started 10 pounds underweight, I lost 25 more pounds in just a few months. I got anemia and felt Always weak. People would think I was using drugs. I dreamt about Sri Yukteswarki saying: "Why don't give the dog a bone?". That convinced me to quit. I've been close to death, I realized that then but it took time to climb uphill again, so much the body was mistreated.

Now I'm much more cautious. I eat what the body demands, little food, but I include yogurt, milk and cheese.

I find soy products tasteless. I cannot eat legumes. I do not use supplements. So a vegan diet would be a suicide for me.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 09:16 pm
Steve, LOL, I cannot but encourage you, vegan diet has more pros than cons.

Besides, you're not at all being so strict as I was, I was an extremist in my Youth.

Yes, Jesus did not encourage actively vegetarianism, but Jesus lived 2000 years ago in a particular context. Like in all mediterranean countries, eat was consummed rarely and on holidays. The mediterranean diet was based heavily upon cereals, fruit, vegetables, legumes. Fish was for rich men and fishermen.

Christians do not discuss about this but it is so evident. In the context, they should eat meat only on sunday and fish on friday. That would mean adhering to the diet of Jesus and his disciples.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 09:21 pm
This is taken from a Christian site. A list of common food in Jesus' land. There is an abundance of vegetables. Also pls note, in all cultures, people who were not rich ate meat very sparingly. So Steve, next time around I would retort to Christians, telling them, since Jesus was a man who lived like the humble people lived in Galilee, he would eat like them, very little meat, little fish, a lot of vegetarian and plant-based foods.

Olives

Figs

Grapes

Lamb

Legumes/Lentils or Beans

Melons

Pomegranates

Dates

Nuts

Raisons

Milk

Cheese

Eggs

Cucumbers

List of Foods Jesus Ate

Fish (even after His resurrection)

Bread (even after His resurrection)

Honey (very likely)

Corn

Wheat

Wine (during Passover, likely though had no or very little alcoholic content)


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 09:34 pm
another aspect which you cannot say to Christians but that we are aware of: the gospesl is what we have, wha has been selected and cut out by the Church. We have many more gospesl, liek the Essene gospel where Jesus is described as a vegetarian and requiring strict vegetarianism, even fruitaranism, from hsi disciples. I adhere to the Essene gospel and to the apocryphe gospels, not  just the official gospels of the Christian Church, which have been censored.

I found this very interesting site. Pls note what it is written in teh characters I boldened. Like Krishna, Jesus admitted milk but only from animals which were well cared and loved.
This source is interesting but it would tke some more research to validate it adequately, it comes from a vegan site.
Eating only the plant food which does not kill the plant seems very sensible to me. Why should we avoide cruelty towards animals and practice cruelty towards plants???

http://www.towardsfreedom.com/249.html

Quote
In the Essene New Testament, Jesus declares:

Verily I say unto you, they who partake of benefits which are gotten by wronging one of God's creatures, cannot be righteous: nor can they understand holy things, or teach the mysteries of the kingdom. whose hands are stained with blood or whose mouths are defiled with flesh....Wherefore I say unto all who desire to be my disciples, keep your hands from bloodshed and let no flesh meat enter your mouths.

We see above that Jesus required vegetarianism from anyone who desired to become his disciple. Likewise, we read in another verse from the same manuscript:

A disciple of Jesus asked him a question, saying, "Master, if there come to us any that eat flesh... shall we receive them?"
And Jesus said unto him, let such abide in the outer court till they cleanse themselves from these grosser evils; for till they perceive, and repent of these, they are not fit to receive the higher mysteries.

Of course, Jesus practiced what he preached; he was himself a vegetarian. In fact, in the following verse he describes himself not only as a vegetarian, but as an Essene Fruitarian. Before sharing that verse with you, I will briefly define the term Essene Fruitarian (a bit later we will more fully define it). An Essene Fruitarian eats only the parts of a plant that can be eaten without killing the plant. This includes obvious fruits such as apples and oranges, but also includes anything else you can eat without killing the plant: squash, corn, cucumbers, etc. We will expand on this definition soon, but let us now consider the following verse in which Jesus describes himself not only as a vegetarian, but as an Essene Fruitarian:

For of the fruits of the trees and the seeds of the earth alone do I partake, and these are changed by the Spirit into my flesh and my blood. Of these alone and their like shall ye eat who believe in me, and are my disciples, for of these, in the Spirit, come life and health and healing unto man.

In the above excerpt, the term "and their like" refers to "other similar vegetarian foods" ; but it is quite clear that though Jesus only required basic vegetarianism from new disciples, he certainly strongly encouraged his veteran disciples to go on to become Essene fruitarians. That is made clear in the following excerpt from The Essene New Testament; Jesus said:

God giveth the grains and the fruits of the earth for food; and for righteous man truly there is no other lawful sustenance for the body.... For God is just and bountiful who ordaineth that man shall live by the fruits and seeds of the earth alone.

Now a more detailed definition of the term Essene Fruitarian. We have already stated that an Essene Fruitarian eats only the part of a plant that can be eaten without killing the plant. Thus, not only the typical "fruits" can be eaten -- grapefruit, grapes, figs, dates, etc. -- but also corn, squash, broccoli, almonds, sunflower seeds, AND ANY OTHER VEGETARIAN FOOD YOU CAN EAT WITHOUT KILLING THE PLANT . Lettuce can be eaten if harvested correctly : simply pick the outer leaves of the lettuce, rather than uproot the plant. The lettuce will continue to grow more leaves and you can continue to harvest the outer leaves every few days. Eventually it will go to seed; you can harvest the seed for your next planting. Even grains such as wheat can be eaten, since it is not necessary to uproot the grass to harvest the grain. Although many Essene Fruitarians will choose to be vegan (a vegan is a vegetarian who eats no animal products at all, including dairy products), it is possible to eat dairy products on this diet since the animal is not killed and the milk comes from grass that need not be uprooted. However, it is important that the dairy product be from animals that are loved and well cared for, and that the animals are not killed when they grow old and non-productive. Jesus permitted his Essene Fruitarian disciples to have milk products; but in those days that meant RAW milk from animals you or your neighbors loved and cared for, as they had no cruel factory dairy farms back then. And the milk would have been from sheep or goats, not cows. The milk of sheep and goats is far easier to digest than the milk of a cow. The milk you buy at a typical grocery store in modern America IS NOT THE MILK ENDORSED BY JESUS! Grocery store milk is not raw, is not from animals well cared for, and is not from sheep or goats. Again, one can choose to be a vegan Essene Fruitarian. But in order to support my assertion that Jesus permitted his disciples to use RAW dairy products, I quote from The Essene Gospel of Peace:


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 09:48 pm
Steve, you can also cite Genesis and thell them Christian that God wish in the bible is that man and woman be vegan:

Quote
GOD said, "I give YOU all the seed-bearing plants that are upon the earth, and all the trees with seed bearing fruit; this shall be your food" (Genesis 1:29)


Jsut to avoid any criticism about the correct translation, in this site there are many alternative, translations. All of'em in substance support a vegetarian (even vegan) devised by God for man.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 09:57 pm
It is interesting to read the interpretation of Genesis 1:29 from teh carnivores and Mcdonalds. What is clear and undisputable though, is that the first man and woman, the purest expression of God's creation, before the original sin, were vegans.

So, a ready answer to Christians would be: I'm follwing Adam and Eve's vegan diet, as ordained by God and detailed in Genesis 1:29. It just appears that it beats your carnivorous diet practiced after the fall and disgrace of man. Meat eating is for sinners! .


Quote
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And God said,.... That is, to Adam and Eve, whom he had made in his image and likeness, and to whom he had given the dominion of the earth and sea, and all things in them:

behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth; every herb or plant which had a seed in it, by which it sowed itself again; or being taken off, might be sown by man, even everyone that was wholesome, healthful, and nourishing, without any exception; whatever grew in any part of the earth, be it where it would:

and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; all but the tree of knowledge, of good and evil, afterwards excepted; and both these take in all kind of vegetables, all herbs, plants, roots, even corn, wheat, barley, pease, beans, &c. and the various fruits of all sorts of trees, but that before mentioned:

to you it shall be for meat: which is generally thought to be the food of the antediluvians (n), it not being proper, at least very soon, to kill any of the animals, until they were multiplied and increased, lest their species should be destroyed; though here is no prohibition of eating flesh; nor is it said that this only should be for meat, which is before mentioned; and by the early employment of some in keeping sheep, and by the sacrifice of creatures immediately after the fall, part of which used to be eaten by the offerers; and by the distinction of clean and unclean creatures before the flood, it looks probable that flesh might be eaten: and Bochart (o) refers this clause to what goes before in the preceding verse, as well as to what is in this, and takes the sense to be, that the fishes of the sea, and fowls of the air, and every living creature man had dominion over, as well as herbs and fruits, were given him for his food: but the Jews (p) are of opinion, that the first man might not eat flesh, but it was granted to the sons of Noah. (From Romans 5:12 there was no death before Adam's sin, hence up until at least the fall, man did not eat meat. Ed.) (n) "Panis erant primus virides Mortalibus Herbae", Ovid. Fast. l. 4. (o) Hierozoic. par. 1. l. 1. c. 2. col. 11. (p) T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 59. 2.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 10:19 pm
Was Jesus actually a vegetarian? was the bible altered by meat eaters? Maybe!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Iv3uU2YY6pM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Alfred E. Newman on May 14, 2015 10:40 pm
Mccoy might be jealous because Steve turned into Hercules on a vegan diet!


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 14, 2015 11:36 pm
Hallelujah !!!   It looks like there may be hope for the Christians after all !!    :D   I've been a PETA member for years (no surprise), but didn't realize til now that there is a sub-group called "Jesus People for Animals".   Shock !!     Take a look …. and don't miss the video at the bottom ……..

http://www.jesuspeopleforanimals.com



Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 14, 2015 11:49 pm
Mccoy might be jealous because Steve turned into Hercules on a vegan diet!

LOL, yes, while I lost weight he turned almost into a Phil Heath clone, that's unfair!!!

(http://fitnish.com/wp-content/gallery/phil-the-gift-heath/phil-heath-10.jpg)


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: the 10 moods of dr. kook on May 15, 2015 03:40 am
Mccoy

I believe the possibilities are unlimted where he's from in Cloneland. Think of Chock Norris and Charles Bronson . But what really puts the icing on the cake is that are friend Steve did it grazing on grass! That distinguishes him from the other clones.

                                                                            10 or so moods


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 15, 2015 09:17 am
Dr kook, darn right, we can see his clone grazing here, pretty muscular indeed:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/911/wBYzea.png)



Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 15, 2015 10:22 pm

Settle down boys !     :D    Now to get back to the subject …….  here is a good article on why we should ditch dairy.   The pictures didn't come through for me, but the important stuff is there anyway …..

http://www.thegreengoddesslife.com/why-should-we-ditch-the-dairy-2/




Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 16, 2015 12:16 am
Laila, you guys are real milk haters!!

First of all, the article makes no mention of quantity. A modest quantity of milk and dairy products, unless you are allergic to lactose or casein, cannot be bad. With the exception of some milk coming from intensive farming of course.
Again, I absolutely agree if you guys tell me that intensive dairy farms practice cruelty, but falling back on fallacies is not something I can agree upon. Last, milk products were a favourite of Lord Krishna. He did not practice intensive farming of course, so dairy products per se cannot be bad like depicted by some vegans.

Point #1: hormones
As I gather, studies are contradictory. It is too easy to cherrypick our sources. The following study, for example rules out significnt problems from estrogens in the tested commercial milks (because of low concentration and activity).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22192179

Also, estrogens are correlated to fat content, the less the milk fat, the less the potential estrogens
Also: growth hormone is not legal in all countries and sure is not used in really organic milk


Point#2: casein

The cited China study is very, very contradictory. Pls just Google "bias in the milk china study" and many links will come up, refuting such study. Besides, the study is contrary to evidence. Again, I believe the bias is simply having studied a Group which was oversensitive to casein.

Point#3: calcium

I agree that overdoses of calcium usually are not only not beneficial but can have adverse effects because of the chemical buffering.
Again, I advocate moderate quantities of milk and dairy products, or tailored to the subject conditions and activities, and this makes all the objections in point 3 moot. Excess is bad. Moderation is good. Yoga philosophy at work.

Point#4: lactose

many people are indeed intolerant to lactose or little tolerant. Why to surpass the tolerance treshold, though? If my tolerance treshold to lactose is half a glass of milk, I'm goign to drink that half glass, no more. Then I'll have unsweetened, pure Whole organic yogurt, which contains no lactose. Also, curdled milk misteriously gives not the intolerance problems of simple milk, I don't know why. And most cheese do not contain significant amount of lactose.

Point#5: baby food
I agree on that. But basically, it is the same thing as saying that grass is rabbit food, bananas are monkey food, sunflowers are parrot food... Human being has just tested all the food available and  picked what was useful for survival. Also, I do not think any country would allow farms of human milk. Even though Piers Anthony, the fiction writer, wrote a story on that. The human milk farm was an illegal practice on oen planet, persecuted by galactic police.

Point#6: anabolic power of milk

Is that so bad? Not everyone is overweight. I eat little, so something which avoids weight loss is a blessing to me. Those who are overweight can dring zero-fat milk or zero fat yogurt (no sugar added). Those who feel are just OK, can have moderate quantities of milk.

Point#7: skin problems

Not everyone suffers from such a drawback. Those who do have a choice, stop having milk products or reduce the quantity, it sounds so simple to me. 


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 16, 2015 04:23 am
 
Hi McCoy …..   Yes, I do honestly think that dairy products are very bad for our health.   But, this is what I really hate ……… 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJPbrxdn8w


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnZPJJ2QG4


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Zeek Zack Ziner on May 16, 2015 06:09 am
Dr kook, darn right, we can see his clone grazing here, pretty muscular indeed:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/911/wBYzea.png)



Hello mccoy me name is zeek zee zack zee ziner Should i do zee clone grazing meself? Or would i too be an endangered zabe species? Dr. Kook lost heze mind. I zinc he took zee pills zat were meant for hez patients one timez too manyz. Heze senze of humor ezcapes me. i dont know if you tell truth or lie. But i do know that i get very confuzed in me mind. i just ask zome zimple advice. Could you elaborate and giz me zee wisdom izzz need? Or should I turn to Lailaz?

                                                                                          Zimply Zee


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 16, 2015 12:27 pm
...i just ask zome zimple advice. Could you elaborate and giz me zee wisdom izzz need? Or should I turn to Lailaz?

Zeek Zack, first of all, congratulations for your moniker, I love the onomatopeic allitteration with the added  layers of concealed and manifest  meanings.

I would answer to you: this is a discussion between feeling (Laila's compassion for cows) and reason (mccoy's dissection of chemical contents and health advantages of dairy). Two different issues, overlapping in some areas.

The wisdom beneath the thread is that, everyone should adjust his or her behaviour to the needs of his or her body and mind. In the most objective and sensible way possible.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 16, 2015 11:23 pm
Some people are influenced by arguments based on reason, some people are influenced by feeling, but what I have observed is that, in making food choices, the vast majority of people are influenced only by their taste buds and their stomachs !!!     People will come up with any rationalization and justification to continue making the same food choices, even when presented with the undeniable facts :    meat, dairy and eggs are bad for our health, the environment, and come from inhumane sources.   

Divine Mother has presented us with wonderful food alternatives to all animal-sourced foods, but we would rather support the agro businesses than change our diets.   We would rather see cows and their calves separated at birth than eat more greens, seeds, nuts, etc.   We would rather eat eggs from miserable, cramped up chickens with their beaks cut off than bother to look for protein alternatives.    Why ?   Because we are slaves to our taste buds.   

If you want strictly reason-based arguments for not consuming meat, eggs and dairy, there is tons of stuff out there.   I could give a list of links a mile long.    Here's just a couple on the influence of dairy on the environment …...

http://waterfootprint.org/media/downloads/Hoekstra-2012-Water-Meat-Dairy.pdf

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/as_dairy_farms_grow_bigger_new_concerns_about_pollution/2768/


And we can always count on Dr. Greger to give us the most up-to-date information on living a healthy plant-based diet ……


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ANCusVd_Kk














Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 16, 2015 11:33 pm
Laila, I basically agree with your reasonings. After all, in between one T-bone steak and the other I'm a perfect vegan. LOL, sorry just messing with you.

My only objection is that milk, eggs, dairy products, from organic sources, in suitable amounts, are good for health, not bad. Barring subjective allergies and problems of course. This is my personal experience of almost 40 years of vegetarian diet.

All other things are undisputably true.

Pls see the other thread about finding friendly sources of eggs and dairy products. Not easy, nor impossible though.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 16, 2015 11:48 pm
Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree and leave it at that.    I don't believe in the myth that there are humane sources of dairy.   Perhaps eggs, as Steve has noted above, if you actually see with your own eyes how the chickens are treated.   Even then, I hate to say, the hatcheries where the chickens originated from ALL destroy male chicks either by suffocating or putting them in grinding machines …. alive.  It's just a sad fact.    All dairies dispose of the unwanted male calves, which are sold and raised for veal.   Even "humane" dairies do that.  It would be extremely rare to find any dairy that is willing to let all the male calves live, and look after them.

So, I'm not interested at all in finding "friendly" sources of eggs and dairy.   I don't think there is such a thing, plus I'm really happy with the way I eat now.   it's more interesting, more varied, and a whole lot healthier.    I was a vegetarian for 35 years before becoming vegan, and their is a substantial difference in how one feels.  I wish I had done it years ago.

IDF
Laila
   


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 17, 2015 11:53 am
Laila, I wonder why you have to be so radical. Sheep herding in my places is almost totally natural, when there is grass on the soil the owners sure do not spend any money in industrial feed. Plus, the milk is far tastier. To my knowledge, lambs are grown or eaten, never wasted away. There is a culture millennia old about that. I'm also starting to get information about farmers with small family-run stables and cows. All this because of your info which sure made the sad situation of cows known to me.
And if you feel better as a vegan, that's a fact, who's going to argue tabout that?

In your honour and in honour of the vegan community, this morning I had a vegan brunch:

2 apples
2 bananas
Almonds and raisins
Chocolate powder plus hot water and chestnut honey.

I feel greeeeeeeeeeeaat!


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 17, 2015 01:02 pm
Hi McCoy …….  I guess I do sound radical to many people, but in my mind I'm not radical at all.    I just want to live as harmless a life as possible.   There are many vegans in the world today, and in my area even many raw vegans, which is something I wouldn't attempt.   They seem radical to me, but for them it's quite a natural way of life.    So I guess "radical" is kind of a subjective term.

I do a lot of animal rights petitioning, letters, etc. online and communicate with others who feel the same way as I do.   I belong to several animal welfare groups too.   There is a big sub-culture developing of people (mostly young people, I am happy to say), who are very interested in changing the way animals in the world are treated, and helping the environment.  It's an exciting thing to see and be a part of, even though I play such a small part.   

Your brunch sounds purrrrfect !    I keep a bowl full of almonds, raisins, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, coconut chips and goji berries on the counter to nibble at.   It's an easy way to get lots of protein and other nutrients without cooking, LOL.   

IDF,
Laila





Title: On the farm.
Post by: the 10 moods of dr. kook on May 17, 2015 05:21 pm
Hi McCoy …….  I guess I do sound radical to many people, but in my mind I'm not radical at all.    I just want to live as harmless a life as possible.   There are many vegans in the world today, and in my area even many raw vegans, which is something I wouldn't attempt.   They seem radical to me, but for them it's quite a natural way of life.    So I guess "radical" is kind of a subjective term.

I do a lot of animal rights petitioning, letters, etc. online and communicate with others who feel the same way as I do.   I belong to several animal welfare groups too.   There is a big sub-culture developing of people (mostly young people, I am happy to say), who are very interested in changing the way animals in the world are treated, and helping the environment.  It's an exciting thing to see and be a part of, even though I play such a small part.   

Your brunch sounds purrrrfect !    I keep a bowl full of almonds, raisins, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, coconut chips and goji berries on the counter to nibble at.   It's an easy way to get lots of protein and other nutrients without cooking, LOL.   

IDF,
Laila



Life on the Farm

Well you have another convert on your side.  I am vegan. Although I'm happy about the eggs i just bought from a very small farm where I was shown the chickens wondering aimlessly. It looked like they had been at a big party the previous night and we're now recovering. The cows were laying down with calves apparently teaching morality to the young ones.  There were ducks nearby, 'farting' in the morning fog.

                                    10 distinct moods


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 17, 2015 10:05 pm
Hi McCoy …….  I guess I do sound radical to many people, but in my mind I'm not radical at all.    I just want to live as harmless a life as possible.   There are many vegans in the world today, and in my area even many raw vegans, which is something I wouldn't attempt.   They seem radical to me, but for them it's quite a natural way of life.    So I guess "radical" is kind of a subjective term.

Absolutely so! Diet is such a subjective matter, in its objectivity of chemicals and gunas.

My technical opinion is that the proof lies in the pudding. If a raw vegan can survive on a raw diet and survive well, for prolonged periods, even by taking supplements, then it works and that's great for him or her. But they should be honest, they should specify that occasionally they make exceptions, it that's the case.
I wonder where is your area with such a concentration of raw vegans, San Francisco?


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 18, 2015 06:09 am
I live on the west coast of Canada, McCoy.   There are quite a lot of "alternative" lifestyle people here, which includes vegans and raw vegans, environmental and animal activists, etc.    Of course there are still a lot of "regular people" and meat eaters too !    But, we're working on them ………    :)

That sounds like a great farm, dr. kook !!!!   

IDF
Laila


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 18, 2015 03:15 pm
I live on the west coast of Canada, McCoy.   There are quite a lot of "alternative" lifestyle people here, which includes vegans and raw vegans, environmental and animal activists, etc.    Of course there are still a lot of "regular people" and meat eaters too !    But, we're working on them ………    :)

That sounds like a great farm, dr. kook !!!!   

IDF
Laila


Laila I think it's wonderful u were attracted to an area where people have alternative life styles. Most of my life i have had to go to places that suited my lifestyle.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 18, 2015 09:33 pm

Do you live in San Diego, Steve ?   


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 18, 2015 10:23 pm

Do you live in San Diego, Steve ?   

Not at this time. I presently live in winter,water, wonderland - Michigan - and travel/work around midwest cloneland. I lived in southern Caly 3 x in my life and may again. I was born there. It is more difficult to have your own food in southern Caly (especially with the recent drought) but there are many places to eat out at there with vegan/vegetarian menus which are generally expensive. Once Scott (Nomaste2all) and I went to a restaurant  that charged over 12 dollars for a bowl of oatmeal.... across the street from the Lake Shrine in Pacific Palasades.

Laila: I wonder if it the water gets warm enough around you anywhere so you could swim?


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 18, 2015 11:33 pm
Another vegan brunch today (I have almost invariably brunch in the day, dinner in the evening, no intermediate snacks but OK drinks):

3 oranges
handful of almonds
30 grams 85% cocoa chocolate

At night I had a bowl of organic curdled milk before more vegan stuff. Prayed to the cow while eating, that she can be rewarded for her selfless service to mankind. Don't want to say 'her sacrifice'.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 19, 2015 12:21 am
It's nice that you say a prayer for the cows, McCoy.   Have you ever tried any of the alternative milks like almond, rice, soy, coconut or cashew ?    You just might get hooked if you do !   :)

 I have joined a world-wide prayer circle for the animals, which you may find interesting.    Every day at noon people pray this prayer:   "Compassion encircles the earth for all Beings".    Of course we can pray in any way we wish, also.    Here is the link …..

http://www.circleofcompassion.org


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 19, 2015 12:39 am
Hi Steve ….. I've heard that Michigan is very beautiful with lots of lakes, right ?

Yes, we can swim in the ocean here, during the Summer, but you have to be a bit brave, LOL.    I used to do it when I was younger, but that was a while ago !     It's actually quite warm up the coast though, in the Parksville/Qualicum area.    I used to have summer holidays there and swim quite a lot.   Some areas are also good for surfing, like our Long Beach which is right on the west coast of the Island.    All in all it's a really nice place to live.   So much nature everywhere, which I really like.   :)
 
IDF
Laila


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 21, 2015 06:14 am
Laila, you guys are real milk haters!!

First of all, the article makes no mention of quantity. A modest quantity of milk and dairy products, unless you are allergic to lactose or casein, cannot be bad. With the exception of some milk coming from intensive farming of course.
Again, I absolutely agree if you guys tell me that intensive dairy farms practice cruelty, but falling back on fallacies is not something I can agree upon. Last, milk products were a favourite of Lord Krishna. He did not practice intensive farming of course, so dairy products per se cannot be bad like depicted by some vegans.

Not milk haters! Just have a real problem here in the United Kingdom of America getting good milk. It all has been cloned and pasturized  for uniformity. So obviously it comes from where? Corporate Cloned America and since the corporate world can buy out lobbying they also can legislate what we eat and drink. At one time long ago we could actually buy raw milk... now like many other good things it is outlawed in favor of corporate profit. And no doubt you may already know; the corporate world chews and spits out humans as well as animals. So we have the issue of cruelty as well as lack of prana energy in our food. Solution: grow whatever u can and buy as little as possible from cloneland farming.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 21, 2015 09:40 pm
Steve, we cannot be too perfectionists, I believe. Otherwise, we should drink milk directly from the cow's udder, since the oxygen in the air is enough to start some chemical degradation processes (together with pranic degradation).

Now, after I tell you that in Italy (soccerland) raw milk is legal, unlike America (cloneland) you are goign to have more reasons to complain about the USC (United States of Cloneland).

Fact is that thogh, even if legal availability of raw milk in Italy is not wide. In my place I cannot find it.

Let's also remember that today there is really no really 'natural' diet.

Vegans who take B12 supplements are surely not behaving 'naturally', since supplements do not exist in nature. Also, Almond milk, tofu, seitan, tempeh, do not exist in nature. Likewise, cooked food does not exist in nature.

Raw vegans who prepare nuts pastes, who make pasta with finely cut zucchini, who squeeze juices and vegetables, who eat sprouts salads,  are doing all these things which in nature are unheard of.

The real raw vegans are primates. They do not cook, they do not make special preparations. They gather food, pick fruit and sometimes eat insects. All as it comes.

This is a real raw veganist who eats only natural food.

(http://static.oilproject.org/content/8819/800px-Jock-the_Gorilla.jpg)
 


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 21, 2015 10:15 pm
McCoy, if Nature intended us to drink cow's milk, indeed we would all be drinking from udders !!   :)   Milk is meant for babies.   I cannot believe that Nature intended us to separate babies from their mothers and steal their milk !   It goes against every law of nature that I can think of.  That is what we do when we eat dairy products. 

None of us can live a perfect life the way Nature intended, but we can do our best to cause the least amount of harm to other Beings.   

I find it interesting that Divine Mother is supplying us with more alternatives to meat and dairy products, at the same time as the horrific abuse of animals in factory farms all around the world are being made public.  I don't think it's a coincidence.  People need other choices and they are being presented to us.   Who is to say that supplements like B12 was not created as an inspiration from the Divine mind ?    Or tofu, almond milk, etc.?   The soy beans, nuts, grains, etc. that are the basis of vegan diets are totally natural.  We just rearrange the food to be more palatable.   A vegan diet is much more natural than processed meat and dairy products.   If Nature intended us to be meat-eaters we would have the same emotional reaction to seeing a rabbit as our dog !    And we would have the ability to run after it and kill it with our teeth.   Sri Yukteswar talks about this in The Holy Science.   

My two cents for today !     ;)

PS:    If you're into body-building (I think you said you were at one time ?) this may be interesting to you.   I am not too familiar with Jared Leto but it seems he is popular in Hollywood these days …….. (I much prefer foreign movies, but that's another topic).   :)

http://www.peta.org/living/food/jared-leto-vegan-diet-build-muscle/





















Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 21, 2015 11:57 pm
…….. (I much prefer foreign movies, but that's another topic).   :)

Yes, Hollywood films are shallow, banal, granted, vacuos, vapid, predictable (at least, 99% of them).

The world is not in blacks and whites, as Hollywood is good to depict it.

THE VILLAIN. THE HERO. The very good and the very evil. Psycological manipulation of the spectator (usually led in such an evident way to result disgusting). Lots of unnecessary obscenities and profanities tossed into like abundant dressing on a salad.

And, at the end, the cavalry which defeats the indians. I believe that 10-years old kids have grown too mature for that.

Anyway, I'm not saying foreign films are necessarily better. Sometimes they are too intellectual or boring or they make no sense at all.

I'm not a frequent viewer of films though.



Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 22, 2015 12:40 pm
You really nailed Hollywood, McCoy !   But I'm surprised you don't watch many Italian movies … they're really great.   :)   


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 22, 2015 02:02 pm
McCoy, if Nature intended us to drink cow's milk, indeed we would all be drinking from udders !!   :)   Milk is meant for babies.   I cannot believe that Nature intended us to separate babies from their mothers and steal their milk !   It goes against every law of nature that I can think of.  That is what we do when we eat dairy products. 

None of us can live a perfect life the way Nature intended, but we can do our best to cause the least amount of harm to other Beings.   

I find it interesting that Divine Mother is supplying us with more alternatives to meat and dairy products, at the same time as the horrific abuse of animals in factory farms all around the world are being made public.  I don't think it's a coincidence.  People need other choices and they are being presented to us.   Who is to say that supplements like B12 was not created as an inspiration from the Divine mind ?    Or tofu, almond milk, etc.?   The soy beans, nuts, grains, etc. that are the basis of vegan diets are totally natural.  We just rearrange the food to be more palatable.   A vegan diet is much more natural than processed meat and dairy products.   If Nature intended us to be meat-eaters we would have the same emotional reaction to seeing a rabbit as our dog !    And we would have the ability to run after it and kill it with our teeth.   Sri Yukteswar talks about this in The Holy Science.   

My two cents for today !     ;)

PS:    If you're into body-building (I think you said you were at one time ?) this may be interesting to you.   I am not too familiar with Jared Leto but it seems he is popular in Hollywood these days …….. (I much prefer foreign movies, but that's another topic).   :)

http://www.peta.org/living/food/jared-leto-vegan-diet-build-muscle/

Laila i see some good points u have made here about the evolution of our eating habits. I believe at this point though that a farmer takes care of chickens and cows all winter by providing them with shelter, hay, corn, water and other foods that required much work to provide. In this sense I see dairy products and eggs as an exchange of services for keeping the animals alive.

I belive u could also make the point that if corn was meant to be eaten from the stalk it would be a food source. Yet we do 'steal' the corn from the stalk and later boil it and eat it. We do not eat it from the 'utter' of the corn stalk. The same can be said of squash or maple syrup.

It is one thing to be against a cruel industry and another to be against the exchanged services between a farmer and the animals he/she takes care of. I am quite happy about a wool blanket that i set on when I meditate. Yet i am much more aware and hesitant to buy leather products.

In this sense I believe the 'gopis' fed Krishna cheese yet they loved and took care of their animals. You may have a valid point though in the sense that as we evolve spiritually in the higher ages we will most likely not eat or drink dairy products. But perhaps we will depend very little on any living food from nature.






















Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on May 22, 2015 09:38 pm
Speaking of 'natural', sunflower seeds, together with pumpkin seeds, are a valuable mine of minerals and oligoelements as you guys well know.

Alas, I find they are not very much palatable.

What I did, I exchanged services with a grinder. I keep him well sheltered in my kitchen, far away from humidity, dust, excessive heat and cold. He lends me his rotor and blades to grind the sufflower seeds. I added raisins to the seeds.

The result is a vegan mixture which, although not natural, now is really too much palatable! Now I have to exercise control not to overindulge in safflower seeds!!!

Steve, LOL, you inspired me about the Exchange of services, but I really agree that's the original idea of raising cattle and poultry.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 23, 2015 12:20 am
It's true that farmers keep animals alive, give them food and shelter, but it's only for their own gain, not out of kindness.    it's a business, and the animals are usually treated as commodities, not sentient beings deserving a natural life.

These are the kind of "farmers" that I resonate with …….

Former Meat and Dairy Farmers Who Became Vegan Activists …….
By Ashley Capps | November 4, 2014 | Categories: Animal Products and Ethics
 

1. Jan Gerdes, former dairy farmer
Hof Butenland is a farmed animal sanctuary in North Germany founded by Jan Gerdes & Karin Mück. Jan was a dairy farmer for many years but after a change of heart that included the decision to go vegan, he converted the farm into a sanctuary and vowed to devote the rest of his life to caring for farmed animals and working to end their exploitation. Speaking about the animals he once used, ate, and routinely sent to slaughter, Jan says:

“Before, I denied that I liked them. There was no other way. I wanted to earn a living. And now they are more like comrades. You are happy, you talk, you talk to them. You talk to a cow as well as to a pig or to a cat or a dog; I don’t see any difference. They all have their qualities and they are happy when I talk to them— and they tell me something. It really is a great way of living together.”

You can learn more about Hof Butenland at their website and in the film, Live and Let Live, a powerful new documentary exploring our relationship with farmed animals, the history of veganism, and the ethical, environmental, and health reasons that motivate people to go vegan. (You might also remember Hof Butenland as home to the world’s happiest calf.)

2. Harold Brown, former beef and dairy farmer
former dairy farmerHarold Brown is a former beef and dairy farmer. He was born on a cattle farm in Michigan and spent over half his life in agriculture. After a personal health crisis forced him to confront the incidence of heart disease in his family, he went vegan. Living in great health on a vegan diet led him to reexamine all of his previous assumptions about eating animals, and he soon experienced a profound conviction that exploiting and killing animals for food is immoral. Now a vegan activist, he is the founder of Farm Kind and one of the subjects of the documentary Peaceable Kingdom.

When asked about so-called humane farming, Harold writes:

“I have often heard the word “humane” used in relation to meat, dairy, eggs, and other products… I have always found this curious, because my understanding is that humane means to act with kindness, tenderness, and mercy. I can tell you as a former animal farmer that while it may be true that you can treat a farm animal kindly and show tenderness toward them, mercy is a different matter.

…I hardly thought twice about the things I had to do on the farm: driving cattle, castrations, dehorning, and I did my fair share of butchering too.

Nowadays I ask myself from both the perspective of the old me and the new me, what does humane mean in the way it is being used? The old me says, “That is an odd word to associate with meat, dairy, and eggs, but hey, if it sells more products, why not?” The new me asks, “Back in the day, I could, and did, raise animals with kindness and tenderness, but how did I show them mercy?” Mercy — a unique human trait of refraining from doing harm.”

— Read more from Harold Brown here, and check out his story in the film Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home.

3. Cheri Ezell, former dairy farmer
cheri-ezell-3Cheri Ezell was working as a goat milk farmer when she met her husband, Jim Vandersluis, a dairy farmer.

She writes:

“One day I entered the barn while he was milking and noticed an obviously ill calf. When I questioned what would happen to her, he told me regardless of the calf’s illness, she would be sent to a livestock dealer where she would be sold for meat. I learned that dairy cows have to be bred every year in order to continue to produce milk, and how their calves are taken from them shortly after birth–they’re lucky if they get colostrum from their mom, which is the first milk that is important for their survival. While some of the calves are kept as replacement heifers, most of them are sent to slaughter or the veal operations, which is a very short life, and not a happy life.

The verbalizations made by mother and baby as they bond are just one small aspect of their emotional lives that we humans tear apart. The mother calls for her baby for many days after they’re separated. How can such a thing ever be called “humane?”

In time, our consciences would not allow us to continue milking our cows for the purpose of producing dairy products. Instead, we increased the goat herd and began to sell goat milk. I thought, perhaps this was an alternative — I could have the animals and I could have the milk, and the babies could go for pets… But we still had to make a living, and I soon realized I couldn’t possibly make enough money from the amount of milk that I was producing and then have the babies go for pets. There were just so many babies, every year you have to have babies. And not very many people are interested in buying goats as pets.

cheri ezell

In certain communities, it’s tradition to have baby goat meat during the Easter holiday. So our farm was overwhelmed every Spring by people looking for baby goats. We would weigh the 25-35 pound kids, and the customers paid. They were then hogtied and literally thrown into a trunk or the back of a pick-up truck like a piece of luggage. Jim soon was saying, “I will carry the goat,” and he would gently put the goat into their vehicle. One day we were standing by the gate of the goat barn, listening to one of our baby goats being driven away, crying in the trunk of the car. It was at this horrific moment that Jim and I looked at each other with tears in our eyes and began our journey to a no-kill life.

Jim and I have since left the dairy industry and converted our farm into a sanctuary for farmed animals, wildlife, and companion animals…for Jim and me, there is now a very clear distinction between humane and inhumane farming. Humane farming is cultivating a plant-based diet. Inhumane farming is breeding any sentient being for production and consumption.”

— Read Cheri’s full account of her and her husband’s transition to veganism and animal activism here. You can also follow their story in the documentary, Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home.

4. Howard Lyman, former beef and dairy farmer
howard-lymanThe people I knew involved in animal production were good people just trying to do the best they knew how for what they envisioned were the right reasons — feeding a hungry America. They believed they were providing an absolute necessity: first-class protein. It was ingrained in them from the time they were kids: ‘Eat your meat’.

Howard Lyman is a fourth generation cattle farmer who converted a small organic dairy farm into a massive factory-style dairy and beef feedlot operation with 7,000 cattle. He also raised chickens, pigs and turkeys, farming animals for more than 20 years. In 1990, extremely overweight and facing health problems related to sky-high blood pressure and cholesterol levels, he decided to become a vegetarian. Experiencing a complete turnaround in his health, Lyman went vegan a year later and soon had a profound change of heart about the ethics of eating animals. He converted his ranch into a wildlife sanctuary and since 1991 has been traveling the world speaking and advocating on behalf of veganism, organic farming, and animal rights.

In an interview, Lyman recalls the difficult moment he discovered that he could no longer turn away from the question of killing animals we have no need to harm at all:

“Not, ‘Am I nice to my animals?’ or, ‘Do I feed them well?’ but, ‘My God, should we be eating them?’ … I was in the bathroom and I was looking in the mirror: it was so traumatic for me that I damn near tore the sink off the wall.

That was a door of my soul that I had never opened before. And once I’d opened it, I could never close it again because I knew what those animals looked like when they went onto the kill floor. I knew what was in their eyes, and I was the person putting them there. It was like everything that you believe to be righteous and holy was all of a sudden at risk. Could I actually allow my mind to sort through that?

And did I have the intestinal fortitude to know the difference and to make a change? Do you go to your wife when you have a multimillion dollar operation and say, ‘Wait a minute: I think what we are doing is wrong’? I realized that my livelihood was built on sand. Everything I’d believed in my entire life was at risk because there I was with a business built on killing animals.”

Lyman has written two books, Mad Cowboy: Plain Truth from the Cattle Rancher Who Won’t Eat Meat and No More Bull! The Mad Cowboy Targets America’s Worst Enemy: Our Diet. He also maintains an educational website, madcowboy.com. Howard Lyman’s life and work are also the subject of Mad Cowboy: The Documentary, and his story is featured in Peaceable Kingdom: The Journey Home.

5. Bob Comis, former pig and sheep farmer
former dairy farmer
Bob Comis. Photo by Zach Phillips.
In late April of 2011, on his pasture-raised-and-grass-fed farm’s blog — a blog intended to communicate with his locavore customer base — pig and sheep farmer Bob Comis posted a sobering one-sentence personal reflection, entitled, “It Might Be Wrong to Eat Meat”:

“This morning, as I look out the window at a pasture quickly growing full of frolicking lambs, I am feeling very much that it might be wrong to eat meat, and that I might indeed be a very bad person for killing animals for a living.”

Fifteen months later, he posted an equally anguished but more substantial entry under the header, “The Grapple of Ethics”:

“When I think about the debate surrounding the ethics of eating meat, I often wonder why it is so difficult for meat eaters to admit that killing animals (to eat their flesh) is unethical? Truly, I cannot think of one sound ethical argument in favor of slaughtering animals for their meat.

The simplest way to put it is that slaughtering animals for their meat is a socially permissible ethical transgression. Societal permission does not make it ethical, it just makes it acceptable. Slavery was for centuries socially permissible (in spite of the fact that there was always a minority standing firmly against it). Did that make it any less unethical? I doubt anyone today would say yes.

As a pig farmer, I live an unethical life, shrouded in the justificatory trappings of social acceptance. There is more, even, than simple acceptance. There is actually celebration of the way I raise the pigs. Because I give the pigs lives that are as close to natural as is possible in an unnatural system, I am honorable, I am just, I am humane, while all the while behind the shroud, I am a slaveholder and a murderer. Looking head on, you can’t see it. Humanely raising and slaughtering pigs seems perfectly normal. In order to see the truth, you have to look askance, just like a pig does when it knows you are up to no good. When you see out of the corner of your eye, in the blurry periphery of your vision, you see that meat is indeed murder.

former dairy farmer
Happy but ill-fated pigs on Bob Comis’s farm. Photo by Zach Phillips.
…What I do is wrong, in spite of its acceptance by nearly 95% of the American population. I know it in my bones, even if I cannot yet act on it. Someday it must stop. Somehow we need to become the sort of beings who can see what we are doing when we look head on, the sort of beings who don’t weave dark, damning shrouds to sustain, with acceptance and celebration, the grossly unethical. Deeper, much deeper, we have an obligation to eat otherwise.”

Comis recently became an ethical vegetarian and told me he fully intends to go vegan. In the midst of a major life transition, he is converting his farm to a vegetable farm, and now publishes widely on the question of eating animals. You can read his critique of humane slaughter here.

6. Renée King-Sonnen
renee-and-rowdy-girlSix years ago, Renée King-Sonnen fell in love with, and married, a fourth generation cattle rancher. She moved from suburbia to 96 acres of Texas pasture where she soon discovered she had fallen in love with the herd of cattle who lived there, too. Fascinated by the animals, Renée began spending a lot of time on the range with them, getting to know their individual personalities, and observing deep bonds between the cows and their calves, as well as the friendships and affection displayed between herd mates. Her heart broke every time the calves were loaded up for auction and their imminent slaughter.

“The experience of watching them leave, the mamas wailing for a week, and the absence of their souls in the pasture haunted me. I’ve cried so many times over this that he has tried to hide the fact he is doing it but I always knew because of the wailing that the momma cows do when they lose their babies and can’t find them.”

Renée bought the cow she calls Rowdy Girl as a calf for $300 from her husband. She bottle-fed her and gave her all the love, nurturing and protection she wished she could give to all of the calves born on the ranch. A few years later, Rowdy Girl gave birth to her own calf, Houdini, so named for her early ability to escape from the property and go wandering. In fact, she escaped so many times that Renee’s husband told her they would have to sell Houdini. Renée refused. She had already gone vegan by that time, and she thought about finding a new home for Rowdy and Houdini at a farm sanctuary. But her heart kept telling her that what she really wanted was to convert the ranch into her own farm sanctuary, and save all of the cattle in her husband’s herd, as well as pigs, chickens and other farmed animals in need. She would call it Rowdy Girl Sanctuary.

Although it was a seeming impossible feat, Renee recently persuaded her husband to let her buy the herd from him for $30,000. He has agreed that if she can raise the money to purchase the herd, he will stop ranching and help her run the sanctuary. To that sunny and promising end, Renee has launched a fundraising campaign to build Rowdy Girl Sanctuary. She has 3 months left to raise $25,000, and is confident she can do so if her story reaches enough people. To help her with her cause or to learn more, please visit and share Renee’s indiegogo campaign. You can also get updates at her facebook page, Vegan Journal of a Rancher’s Wife.

The next two people never farmed for a living, but as children of animal farmers they grew up on meat or dairy farms.

7. T. Colin Campbell

t-colin-campbellDr. T. Colin Campbell is an American biochemist whose research focuses on the effects of human nutrition on long-term health. Because his emphasis is nutrition science, he does not use the term vegan but rather advocates for a 100% plant-based diet, stressing the empirical basis for his position. However, his books, articles and lectures have been hugely influential in leading thousands of people down the vegan path, and in solidifying the case that humans can easily thrive without consuming any animal products.

With his son, Dr. Campbell co-authored the international bestseller The China Study, based on his findings from a 20 year research project conducted under the auspices of Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, and described by The New York Times as “the Grand Prix of epidemiology.” The China Study examines the relationship between animal product (meat, egg and dairy) consumption and chronic illnesses including heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, prostate cancer, and colon cancer. Based on a meta-analysis of diet and disease rates in thousands of people in rural populations of Taiwan and China, Dr. Campbell concludes that people who eat a whole foods, plant-based diet—excluding all animal products—can avoid, reduce, and in many cases reverse the development of numerous illnesses, including most of the leading fatal Western diseases.

Perhaps the most surprising thing about this study and his subsequent life’s work is that Dr. Campbell spent his entire childhood, into adulthood, living and working on his family’s dairy farm, and undertook the China Study with the belief that animal protein was an essential part of a healthy diet. He now teaches that casein, the main protein in milk and dairy products, is the most significant carcinogen we consume. Here is an excerpt from a position paper he presented to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine:

the-china-study“I was raised on a dairy farm milking cows until my graduate student days in nutrition at Cornell University. For my doctoral research I investigated, in effect, how to make the production of milk, meat and especially animal protein more efficient. Later, it was on to Virginia Tech’s Department of Biochemistry and Nutrition and my coordination of a State Department funded project designed to organize a nationwide program of improving the health of malnourished children in the Philippines, especially to insure a good source of protein, preferably ‘high quality’ animal based protein.

But I was greeted with a surprise. The few people who were consuming protein-rich diets were more susceptible to primary liver cancer… My associates and I then embarked on a basic research program to investigate this surprising effect of protein feeding on cancer development. Supported entirely by public money – mostly from NIH – we explored in depth over the next 27 years various characteristics of this association. We needed to confirm this observation, then determine how it worked. We did both. The results were profoundly convincing and, along the way, they illustrated several fundamental nutrition and cancer principles.

Tumor growth could be alternately turned on and off by feeding diets containing higher and lower levels of dietary protein, respectively.
Dietary protein promoted tumor growth but only at dietary levels above that needed for good health (ca. 10% of total energy).
Although dietary protein did not initiate cancer, it enhanced initiation and, more importantly, promoted tumor growth.
The protein effect could be explained by multiple biochemical mechanisms, appearing to act in synergy.
The dietary protein having this tumor promoting effect was casein, the principle protein of cow’s milk. Two plant-based proteins, soy and wheat, did not promote tumor growth–even at the higher level.
The casein effect on tumor growth very likely extends to other animal proteins as well.
Based on the criteria used by the government’s program for determining whether chemicals are carcinogenic, casein is very likely the most relevant chemical carcinogen we consume.
However, I question studies that are focused on single agents and single events because they are usually missing the larger context. Thus, we sought that larger context within which casein, perhaps animal protein in general, relates to human health. An opportunity arose for us to conduct such a study among human subjects in rural China where various cancers were geographically localized and where diets contained relatively small but varied amounts of animal based foods. In seeking this larger context in this nationwide study, we learned – from multiple perspectives – that relatively small amounts of animal based foods (and/or the lack of whole plant based foods) nutritionally conspire to cause degenerative diseases like cancer, cardiovascular and other diseases commonly found in the United States and other highly industrialized countries.

These experiences eventually led me to a view about diet and nutrition that is substantially different from that with which I began my research career, especially in respect to my personal and professional love affair with cow’s milk and its products.”

To learn more, check out the book, The China Study, or visit thechinastudy.com. You can also stream the groundbreaking health documentary Forks Over Knives, inspired by the work of Dr. Campbell.

8. Helen Peppe
helen-peppeHelen Peppe grew up the youngest of nine children on a farm in Maine, where she lived until college. In her recent memoir, Pigs Can’t Swim, she recounts how the early connections she made with the animals raised and killed on her family’s farm drove her decision to become a childhood vegetarian (and a vegan in adulthood), and the often lonely world she inhabited as a result of that decision.

From Pigs Can’t Swim:

“I looked at the pile of decapitated bodies and thought of the stump in the woods and the heads around it, the expressions not of surprise, but fear, eyes wide open. What was the last thing they’d seen, part of a tree, grass, the axe, the next chicken in line? Did two of them remember their short baby chickhood where they’d been petted and loved? Did their brains show them pictures of a particular moment, pictures of the past and present? A future? I’d watched dogs, horses and pigs dream, their legs trotting in their sleep, their eyelids fluttering as they whined or grunted. Did chickens dream, too? I looked at the pile of decapitated bodies and knew I would not eat any of them, knew I would never eat any animal again because how could I eat anything that could enjoy attention or who might have dreams of her own?

Observing the deaths of so many animals, animals who enjoyed playing in the pastures and pens with their lambs, calves, and piglets, I wanted to protect them, to save their lives.”

You can read an interview with Helen Peppe at Vegan Publishers. Check out her photography and learn more about her writing at helenpeppe.com.





Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 23, 2015 11:13 am
Nomaste dear one

Quite a bit to read here. I am not sure that these testimonies have relevance to my life personally. However I also do not know if u intended them to have relevancy for me.

I believe that farmers can sell vegetables and fruits for a living but unless someone is personally wealthy how can they afford to have a lot of animals around? Feeding and taking care of animals is costly. I have found this to be true only having a few pets around. Most of these farmers you have mentioned seem to have already made their fortune using animals in various ways for food. Very few of us are able to buy land and animals and take care of them. It is financially out of the question. Which leaves the question: How do the vast amount of animals get fed and find shelter?

In  Cloneland and most of the so called civilized world people own land and that has changed things incredibly since the nomadic tribes roamed this continent. People call law enforcement agencies when people are on their property and even more so if animals roam around on their property. The obvious conclusion-someone has to take care of them. Well it won't be me because I am only home a couple days a week... the other days I am working in other towns.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 23, 2015 09:02 pm
No, I guess the stories I posted don't really relate to any of us here.    I just thought they were inspiring as it's not often you hear of farmers having a change of heart towards their animals, becoming vegan and opening animal sanctuaries.   It is happening more than ever before though.     Here is a song this ex-cattle rancher's wife wrote, about the red trailer that used to take the baby calves away to slaughter.    Happily, not anymore, in this case anyway !!!

We all can decide what's right for us, with regard to diet, and out attitude to animals and their rights.    I admit my attitude is more radical than most, but the numbers of people like me are growing fast.    :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDEGXszfOr0


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Steve Hydonus on May 28, 2015 04:37 pm
Wow Leila

I have this protein shake lately its by made by a odwalla. This chocolate protein shake is made with soy milk, filtered water, cane sugar.... oh there is a little milk protein concentrate... I didn't realize that but it is it's just full of   b12 - hundred eighty percent, copper 40% iron 30% b6 hundred eighty percent and calcium 90%. What a drink. Just thought I'd let you know I've got all my my parsley snd herb plants growing in the truck I'm driving... plus all my sprouts. They get shuffled around because they don't look too good after that. It takes some adapting!


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: Laila on May 28, 2015 09:48 pm

That sounds great, Steve !  I'm amazed that you can grow herbs, etc. in the truck.   You're very inventive !!!   

I've been experimenting with a lot of different ways to make protein smoothies.    Lately I've been blending up nuts and seeds, like walnuts, pumpkin and sunflower seeds, til they're just a powder, then adding leafy greens, and then lots of berries …..  blueberries, etc., and bananas.    That way you get protein and lots of antioxidants at the same time.    There's no end to the fun you can have with a good blender !   LOL. 


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on Aug 08, 2016 10:33 pm
An interesting blog by Denise Minger on the data used by Campbell in his china study to criticize dairy products. It turns out that the data prove nothing, being based on two provinces made up of heavy dairy products consumers. Also, the correlation numbers appear to prove nothing. Campbell observed that rats fed on casein were unhealthy. That proves little as well.

https://rawfoodsos.com/2010/06/20/a-closer-look-at-the-china-study-dairy-and-disease/


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: tides2dust on Aug 08, 2016 11:46 pm
((( Laila ))))

What a wonderful source of information you provide here at the Portal.

Much Love and Respect for all that you've contributed here and I hope we hear from you again. =)

Cheers, thank you mccoy for resurrecting this thread.  :)


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on Aug 10, 2016 01:41 pm
Hi daemoon, glad you are reading with interest and I too would like to meet you in person sometime.
I've recently decided to update my rusty knowledge of nutrition for practical purposes. Presently, dietary science has been revolutionized by some concepts which are pretty sensible.

There is no 'healthy diet' in absolute, although 'natural' diets are regarded as such.

'Natural' means no refined or processed foods, junk food and so on. No sweets is much better.

I concur with the accepted, sensible concept  that a vegan (or vegetarian) diet which contains a lot of commercial junk vegan food and little natural food is far worse than a diet where meat and fish are consumed in moderate amounts together with plenty vegetables and other wholesome, natural food.

The meat-eaters concur that meat should be from grass-fed animals, not the commercial stock. Although I imagine that grassfed is expensive and out of the reach of most people.

There are some interesting people out there like Dr Hyman, who coined the term peganism, that is, paleo-veganism. They eat mostly vegan but with the addiction of some animal food which is more consistent with the gatherer-omnivore nature of the apes from whom we genetically descend.

Conceptually, I do not concur that a pure paleo diet is the best for the human being, simply because the conditions during the glacial periods (paleolithic diet) should not necessarily be the ones ruling the genetics of our digestive system. Also, there are some populations which have been studied, just emerging from the paleolithic, which ate mostly plant based food (this in tropical areas).

Bottom line, everyone should understand what is an healthy diet for him/herself according to his/her subjective conditions and tolerances, which are widely variable. Possibly without cheating, LOL.


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: mccoy on Aug 10, 2016 03:00 pm
Denise Minger is a young lady who is a nutrition buff who has read and reasoned very extensively, besides being author of a book: 'Death by The food Pyramid'.

In her site there is a section on veganism. She is a former vegan turned less strict and has some sensible suggestions for those who would like to avoid the potential dangers of a vegan diet.
My opinion still is that the best vegan is a non-vegan, I apologize for that but there are too many loose ends to such a strict diet regime, the first being the necessity to fall back on supplements for most people.

https://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/

Even though I don’t believe strict vegan diets are optimal from a health perspective, I do think there are ways to make the best out of a meatless, eggless, and dairyless situation. I’d like to offer some of those ideas on this page so that anybody personally committed to veganism can maximize their chance of staying healthy, and hopefully avoid the most common pitfalls us annoying ex-vegans blather on about. (Please note that this isn’t an endorsement for current omnivores to convert to veganism, and there’s no guarantee you’ll truly thrive even if you follow all the suggestions below—but I do think these guidelines will give vegans the best chance possible for warding off health problems.)

In no particular order of importance, here’s a summary of the list, followed by a more detailed version of each point:

Eat real food—no fake meats, processed soy products, vegan junk food, etc.
Avoid high omega-6 vegetable oils and take a vegan DHA supplement.
Supplement with vitamin K2.
Supplement with a vegan form of vitamin D3.
Enhance your beta carotene absorption and conversion.
Properly prepare any grains, legumes, or nuts you eat.
Maximize iron absorption using vitamin-C-rich foods.
Keep your thyroid in good shape.
Take vitamin B12.
Try going gluten-free.
Eat some fermented foods.
Supplement with taurine.
Consider adding oysters or other non-sentient bivalves to your diet.



Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: tides2dust on Aug 10, 2016 07:11 pm
hi mccoy,

i'm not sure if i've said it here already but my sister shared something with me that rings true and that's that it's all one big health journey


Title: Re: Pros and cons of vegan diet
Post by: tides2dust on Apr 28, 2018 09:29 am
really happy to bump this thread and come back to interesting reads.