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Rich men's War's and Poor men's Fights


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Steve Hydonus
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« on: Jul 16, 2016 01:07 am »

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ncuv/honey1.htm

It has happened twice in this (my life) life that i am certain of and maybe more; The Viet Nam War and the Iraq War. It also happened as a previous condition during the Civil War and has most likely happened uncountable times in history in different places and nations. Soon we learn to see the signs and recognize it is not against another nation we are fighting but rather the interests of the very wealthy of a nation.... often our own. We the people have been exploited by the greed and covetousness of a small group of very wealthy families and businesses in our nation. We the people were not fighting for Democracy but rather an Oligarchy which has become the United Clones of America.
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« Reply #1 on: Jul 16, 2016 06:46 pm »

it is becoming more and more apparent, this is not just a problem we face in the united states but a world wide conditioning

perhaps a necessary chapter in mans evolution....
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 17, 2016 12:28 am »

Steve, pehaps you are right, perhaps your view is not totally accurate.

The wars you cite both reek of incompetence.

As far as I know, the main historical reason of the Vietnam war was to avoid the so called domino effect. Whole countries falling into the influence of communism.

We've already spoken about the Iraqui war in other threads.
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« Reply #3 on: Jul 17, 2016 01:28 am »

Steve, pehaps you are right, perhaps your view is not totally accurate.

The wars you cite both reek of incompetence.

As far as I know, the main historical reason of the Vietnam war was to avoid the so called domino effect. Whole countries falling into the influence of communism.

We've already spoken about the Iraqui war in other threads.

It is important to realize that the U.S. did not support democracy in Viet Nam but rather brutal dictatorship. If a free elections were allowed Ho Chi Minh would have won. What the U.S. must recognize is that every nation does not need to live according to our standards. If a nation chooses communism that is their right.
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« Reply #4 on: Jul 17, 2016 09:13 am »

Steve, that's sensible hindsight, but that the political strategy in the sixties was to avoid the domino effect at all costs.

Critics of the Vietnam war have underlined that an alliance with China would have been impossible, since the Vietnamese hate China because of the former brutal ruling of the Ching dinasty in their country.

What about Russia though?

Now it is all too evident that America led her crusade against against communism often in a shortsighted way. But then communism was spreading around way too much.

I remember that in Italy there were many communist people who really believed that Russia was the heavens on earth. The young people were being utterly fooled by propaganda and believed that Russia was the epithome of true and benevolent socialism. I've lived thru those times and I can say that the fanatism of those guys was sometimes equal to the fanatistm of present Islam integralists.
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« Reply #5 on: Jul 17, 2016 10:43 am »

For those taking interest and mccoy... It was a foresight into the future landscape of corporate America. It honestly is not a 'sensible hind sight' as u have suggested; but rather it was my view in the late 60's and early 70's when I determined there was one of two routes for myself....either prison or Canada. I was a follower of the views of David Harris and his book Goliath. I had accurately assessed the situation. As young men we were fighting against the beast of Goliath. It was like Brave New  World here in the states. Double think and lies all to promote imperialism abroad and the interests of the wealthy. (Not unlike being in the south during the civil war) Some of us were able to see thru the myth of political indoctrination to shed our blood for the greed of the economic interests of corporate America. We had a different vision. Mine was a vision of changing ourselves/myself not trying to force the world into our image.

Of course I could not agree with Russian Communism and the gulags but this was a different issue. It turned out that Ho Chi Minh was just what that country wanted and therefore needed. Vietnam is a prosperous nation today. Who knows what it would be like if we forced it into our image.... Wal-Marts in every town, McDonalds, American Gas stations and chain department stores... they were spared this. They deserve their own culture.

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/david-harris-3/goliath-2/
 
"We have been superseded by the life of the state: when we might bloom, we are directed; when we might learn, we are instructed; when we might heal, we are wounded; when we might see, we are told to mask ourselves and pretend that what is, isn't, and that what isn't, never will be."
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« Reply #6 on: Jul 17, 2016 12:50 pm »

For those taking interest and mccoy... It was a foresight into the future landscape of corporate America. It honestly is not a 'sensible hind sight' as u have suggested; but rather it was my view in the late 60's and early 70's when I determined there was one of two routes for myself....either prison or Canada. I was a follower of the views of David Harris and his book Goliath. I had accurately assessed the situation. As young men we were fighting against the beast of Goliath. It was like Brave New  World here in the states. Double think and lies all to promote imperialism abroad and the interests of the wealthy. (Not unlike being in the south during the civil war) Some of us were able to see thru the myth of political indoctrination to shed our blood for the greed of the economic interests of corporate America. We had a different vision. Mine was a vision of changing ourselves/myself not trying to force the world into our image.

Of course I could not agree with Russian Communism and the gulags but this was a different issue. It turned out that Ho Chi Minh was just what that country wanted and therefore needed. Vietnam is a prosperous nation today. Who knows what it would be like if we forced it into our image.... Wal Marts in every town. American Gas stations and chain stores... they were spared this. They deserve their own culture.

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/david-harris-3/goliath-2/
 
"We have been superseded by the life of the state: when we might bloom, we are directed; when we might learn, we are instructed; when we might heal, we are wounded; when we might see, we are told to mask ourselves and pretend that what is, isn't, and that what isn't, never will be."

We have had people on the forum like that as well; People who forcefully try to make others in their image. It is not about changing others but about changing ourselves. It is God's drama not ours. But we have many small time directors who want to change the plot according to their liking.
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« Reply #7 on: Jul 18, 2016 02:34 pm »

Steve, of course an inside opinion like yours is more representative than an outside opinion like mine, which is worth as far as the public opinion about America in Italy. Which is mixed. Some love the USA, some hate it.

Also, greed is part of wealthy people, otherwise they could not be so wealthy. Besides, we know that there are some inordinately greedy ones who will attempt everything to satisfy their greed. In a few words, of course many who take advantage from a military intervention will lobby for that intervention.

But this may be a subject for another post: is a military intervention favourable to all wealthy people, or only to a few of them? Often wars cause a crash in the stock market. Business will stagnate. Weapons manufacturers and merchants will thrive, entrepreneurs in tourism, cultural activities, unessential items, will loose wealth.
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« Reply #8 on: Jul 19, 2016 12:03 am »

Steve, of course an inside opinion like yours is more representative than an outside opinion like mine, which is worth as far as the public opinion about America in Italy. Which is mixed. Some love the USA, some hate it.

Also, greed is part of wealthy people, otherwise they could not be so wealthy. Besides, we know that there are some inordinately greedy ones who will attempt everything to satisfy their greed. In a few words, of course many who take advantage from a military intervention will lobby for that intervention.

But this may be a subject for another post: is a military intervention favourable to all wealthy people, or only to a few of them? Often wars cause a crash in the stock market. Business will stagnate. Weapons manufacturers and merchants will thrive, entrepreneurs in tourism, cultural activities, unessential items, will loose wealth.

What interests me more then anything about this subject is our present life here on earth. Why were we brought into such a drama or perhaps we should b better to ask; Why did we choose to come here while these things were playing out? i find all your reflections helpful mccoy. There is one important thing we/you may b missing though. Today there is international wealth. People who could care little about any specific country-the merchants and tourist trades etc. in those countries-but instead only their power in the world. These type of people invest in countries that have severe human rights issues. For instance China. After what the Chinese did to the Buddhists in Tibet it seems abhorrent to help them in any way or to invest in such a country that tortures and exterminates those with spiritual views. Until they admit their atrocities against spirituality and Buddhism; why should we trust them in any way? But we have very opportunist businesses. For instance WalMart who will deal with the devil to get a bargain. They could care less about the sweat shops where they are getting these products from.

But i have met and spent time with wealthy people. They often see it as a game. A game to get more and more. They really do not look at the human element of how you are treating another human being. At least not in business. Business is business. Their personal life may be different. But they often have a different set of ethics for business. It might be better to say--- no ethics. Of course this is not a hard and fast rule. There are exceptions for everything. My observation is that most of these people are rarely interested in spirituality and their interests wane rapidly. They cannot keep a continuity of interest in spirituality because their mind is too much on the earth and what they have and can yet get. i have had to let many of these people out of my life. No doubt we all have to be aware of this material vibration that keeps us earth bound because it exists in most all of us to some extent.

Someone came to Jesus with this question: "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." Which ones?" he inquired. Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'' "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

This is the benefit of a Master. They can quickly look in us and help us identify the impediments to our enlightenment. Paramahansa Yogananda summed it up succinctly; 'The biggest problem facing the United States is misplaced priorities.'
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« Reply #9 on: Jul 19, 2016 02:59 pm »

Steve, then you are raising the issue of ethical business. We, the consumers, may choose to punish those companies who are behaving unethically and reward those who are behaving ethically simply by selection of the products we are buying. Right now that's not the rule but later it might become a main parameter of choice.

If and when it will be so, entrepreneurs will be compelled to behave ethically lest they loose market.

I already use that kind of selection in food purchaing for example, but in this context it is easy since healthy foods are usualy no-OMG, are locally produced in small quantities and without a big impact on the land and on the animals...

I might choose nto to buy Chinese products but then probably I should not use smart phones and electrical appliances at all, not even the PC I'm writin with.

But I might do a market research and choose the brands which have the less Chinese components for example.

I admire wealthy people because of their cunning. Of course I despise them when they behave like miserable stingy ones when the welfare of common people is concerned.
Parhamansa Yogananda admired business men and he himself has been a very successfull salesman of his model of Raja Yoga.

But ofteny, like you say, rich people are very biased. Especially those who have family money. They were never in financial difficulties, so they cannot understand what it means to be poor.
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« Reply #10 on: Jul 19, 2016 05:28 pm »

Steve, then you are raising the issue of ethical business. We, the consumers, may choose to punish those companies who are behaving unethically and reward those who are behaving ethically simply by selection of the products we are buying. Right now that's not the rule but later it might become a main parameter of choice.

If and when it will be so, entrepreneurs will be compelled to behave ethically lest they loose market.

I already use that kind of selection in food purchaing for example, but in this context it is easy since healthy foods are usualy no-OMG, are locally produced in small quantities and without a big impact on the land and on the animals...

I might choose nto to buy Chinese products but then probably I should not use smart phones and electrical appliances at all, not even the PC I'm writin with.

But I might do a market research and choose the brands which have the less Chinese components for example.

I admire wealthy people because of their cunning. Of course I despise them when they behave like miserable stingy ones when the welfare of common people is concerned.
Parhamansa Yogananda admired business men and he himself has been a very successfull salesman of his model of Raja Yoga.

But ofteny, like you say, rich people are very biased. Especially those who have family money. They were never in financial difficulties, so they cannot understand what it means to be poor.

Yes i agree. The challenge is in the U.S. is that most everything has become corporate and how do u punish a nation? Corporate America runs our nation. i have talked to a sailor who was 'fighting for the U.S. in the Viet Nam war who told me his job was looking for oil in the China Sea near Viet Nam. i have talked to a air pilot who told me he had no idea what was below when he dropped napalm bombs over the jungles of Viet Nam. Didn't know if he was hitting huts, children, women, families, villages etc. In most cities local business has been pushed out. Your local restaurant has now become McDonalds, Wendys and Pizza Hut. Your local grocery store has now become Wal Mart and Meijers  and Target etc. Your local hardware has now become Ace and Home Improvement Centers.
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« Reply #11 on: Jul 19, 2016 05:31 pm »

Its true the orders come from above. There is no doubt that America like all countries is run by and for wealthy interests. Its so obvious as to go without saying.
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« Reply #12 on: Jul 19, 2016 06:16 pm »

Its true the orders come from above. There is no doubt that America like all countries is run by and for wealthy interests. Its so obvious as to go without saying.

There r some small things i do to help local business. It is a conscious choice on my part. We have the farmers market on Saturday, a small Amish store a few miles away and one local grocery store still left in town. It may not be the rule in Italy yet but it is in the United Clones of America Mccoy. If u came back today and visited u would find a much different nation then when u visited years back. Cloneland has developed and snuffed out most all private business. Even healthy Foods have been infiltrated by corporate America. Example GNC Health food Stores.

By the way... i recognize that Paramahansa Yogananda was successful at promoting Raja Yoga. However we as spiritual aspirants should also realize then that his particular 'brand' of yoga and kriya is not for everyone and there are those who teach raja yoga and kriya yoga and other forms of meditation who deserve much respect as well.

i have gone thru financial ups and downs thru my life. i believe it is karmic. i also think that it has helped develop compassion in me. It is hard to imagine me not helping others who ask and need it but many people end up using you when you do help. i have found this particularly  true in emotionally based situations when others are going thru difficult relationship problems. People will actually use you to get thru their own problems and then dump you. At that point it becomes very evident why they had the problems in the first place. This is a different kind of 'poor'. It is being poor in spirit and not recognizing it. i suppose this might be one of the lessons i have learned being born in this period of history. Rich and Poor goes way beyond money. There r people who r very rich spiritually speaking and there r people who have 'things' that r very poor spiritually speaking.

Steve, then you are raising the issue of ethical business. We, the consumers, may choose to punish those companies who are behaving unethically and reward those who are behaving ethically simply by selection of the products we are buying. Right now that's not the rule but later it might become a main parameter of choice.

If and when it will be so, entrepreneurs will be compelled to behave ethically lest they loose market.

I already use that kind of selection in food purchaing for example, but in this context it is easy since healthy foods are usualy no-OMG, are locally produced in small quantities and without a big impact on the land and on the animals...

I might choose nto to buy Chinese products but then probably I should not use smart phones and electrical appliances at all, not even the PC I'm writin with.

But I might do a market research and choose the brands which have the less Chinese components for example.

I admire wealthy people because of their cunning. Of course I despise them when they behave like miserable stingy ones when the welfare of common people is concerned.
Parhamansa Yogananda admired business men and he himself has been a very successfull salesman of his model of Raja Yoga.

But ofteny, like you say, rich people are very biased. Especially those who have family money. They were never in financial difficulties, so they cannot understand what it means to be poor.
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 19, 2016 08:12 pm »

Now is the time to alter our government. Now is the time to stop the movement toward oligarchy. Now is the time to create a government which represents all Americans and not just the 1%... No more excuses. This is a very important issue that the corporate media chooses not to talk about a whole lot, that we have an economic system which is rigged, which means that at the same time as the middle class of this country is disappearing, almost all of the new income and wealth in America is going to the top 1 percent. You have the top one-tenth of 1 percent owning almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent - 58 percent of all new income is going to the top 1 percent.We must all become involved in the political process.A nation will not survive morally or economically when so few have so much and so many have so little. (We need a) political revolution - millions of people standing up and saying, enough is enough. Our government belongs to all of us, and not just the hand full of billionaires. The rich people are apparently leaving America. They're giving up their citizenship. These great lovers of America who made their money in this country-when you ask them to pay their fair share of taxes they run abroad. We have 19-year old kids who lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan defending this country. They went abroad. Not to escape taxes. They're working class kids who died in wars and now billionaires want to run abroad to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. What patriotism! What love of country!
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 20, 2016 11:16 am »

I agree with Sanders' wrath against rich people flying away.
What are rich people in the USA doing? If they want to avoid paying taxes, they must show that they have no more possessions in their countries (home, cars and so on) which would mean that they changed citizenship with the clear intent not to pay taxes. They would be soon facing the IRS and a court of justice, unless they can prove they really located elsewhere and go back just to visit and have no more financial interests in their original country. Such things have happened in Italy, usually showbiz and sports people do that.
I'm not aware that other rich people do this in Italy. They like to live in their country, what they'll do is simply to relocate their production plants, or their funds (like we've seen in the recent Panama files news). No personal relocation needed, no sweat, no hassles...
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