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Are We Bound By the Zodiac?


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tides2dust
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« on: Jan 06, 2017 10:13 pm »

Are we bound by the zodiac- can we break the expectations of our sign?

For example... When a girl ask, "what's your sign?" and in her research finds you're compatible or not compatible... Something about that seems absurd to me.

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« Reply #1 on: Jan 07, 2017 12:25 am »

Are we bound by the zodiac- can we break the expectations of our sign?

For example... When a girl ask, "what's your sign?" and in her research finds you're compatible or not compatible... Something about that seems absurd to me.

While it is possible to find compatibility between people it is not so simple as to do it by 'sign' alone. What is meant by 'sign' is a misnomer because it can only tell us one thing; that is whether the Sun signs are compatible. There is much more to comparing people by using Sun signs alone. We must look at all the planets and important areas of two charts to see the dynamics and compatibilities or liabilities they may share.

Two people may not be compatible by Sun signs but may share compatibility in every other way or they may be compatible by Sun sign and show no compatibility in the rest of the astrological charts.
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 07, 2017 09:39 pm »

I would not let a google search for zodiac compatibility halt the pursuits of a relationship. I'd rather defy those odds. Cheesy Whatever the sign, if it's going to happen- it will. I've met one to many take caution in pursuing their feelings because someone who doesn't know them would tell them what's best for them. We are not bound by a Zodiac sign. I do have respects for yours and Little Hoot's insights and I do not mean to belittle your research and understanding. I agree with your response that there are many variables to a person and I believe in the power of alchemy.

 
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 07, 2017 10:34 pm »

Astrology is generally considered to have been replaced by astronomy. Similarly, alchemy is also considered to have given way to chemistry. Neither has proved acceptable to modern scientific standards. There is no Chair for Astrology at Harvard, for example, and no serious studies underway. Both are generally understood to be a superstitious, pseudo-science. I imagine you all know this, and I say this knowing that Steve practices astrology. So, I expect him to disagree.

If I met a girl who said that she couldn't date me due to our signs I would accept it. Because the truth is, she would probably be right.

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« Reply #4 on: Jan 07, 2017 10:53 pm »

Of course, this view contradicts the view of those who follow Yogananda. Sri Yukteswar is presented as an expert astrologist, and the stories from the autobiography, if accurately portrayed, would make a strong case that he was. Would it mar the reputation of Sri Yukteswar if it were admitted that astrology is an outdated subject? The SRF path seems based largely on the belief in astrology. Would it even be possible for someone to be a SRFer if they didn't believe in astrology? These are questions that I don't often hear asks in these circles.

And I too mean no disrespect. It seems to me that it would be perfectly understandable for people in early 20th century India to believe in astrology. Ramana too gave it a passing endorsement somewhere. It is deeply ingrained in Indian culture. The question extends to do people have to be infallible to have our respect? I don't think so. Isaac Newton is respected, and he practiced a whole lot of alchemy and religion. Scientists respect him, but they don't believe in alchemy.
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 07, 2017 11:18 pm »

Hi Brock,

I'm not smart- I simply meant I believe in transmutation! Personally, if a girl needs to research whether or not we'd work through google and then deny my advances because of it- I'd say she isn't worth it. On to the next one! lol  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 07, 2017 11:45 pm »

Hi -----,

I'm not smart

Yeah, you are.

----

Sometimes people get this stuff from newspapers and magazines, or, as you say, a google search. It's natural for us to believe in this kind of stuff. My mom, for example, went to see a psychic who she believes predicted that she would be with her current fiance. This is something I was not aware of until my sister recently told me. She admitted that she had gone to him also, but didn't want to tell me or my dad because she was afraid we would cast doubts on it. And she "wanted to believe it" she said, so didn't tell us. It turns out his prediction didn't pan out for her, though, after all. 
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 08, 2017 12:57 am »

Interesting that you would bring up Sri Yukteswar Brock. These views below reflect my own although I had them before reading this material. As you know Eric I was able to predict the great changes in your life recently. Would it have helped you more for me to tell who I thought would specifically be leaving your life? No I do not think so; nor do astrologers always say such things. Why? Because they themselves are looked at as generating such negativity. It was best for you yourself to assess the changes which I spoke to you of many times in the last couple years. It is not a 'bad' thing. Your life has and will encounter much transformation thru this-once in a life time-metamorphosis. It is not so much the events that are important as the reaction and wisdom we gain from them that matters.

Sri Yukteswar Sri Yukteswar
STORIES AND TEACHINGS OF SRI YUKTESWAR
from Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda

Is Astrology a Real Science?
It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief.

Charlatans have brought the stellar science to its present state of disrepute. Astrology is too vast, both mathematically and philosophically, to be rightly grasped except by men of profound understanding. If ignoramuses misread the heavens, and see there a scrawl instead of a script, that is to be expected in this imperfect world. One should not dismiss the wisdom with the ‘wise.’

All parts of creation are linked together and interchange their influences. The balanced rhythm of the universe is rooted in reciprocity. Man, in his human aspect, has to combat two sets of forces — first, the tumults within his being, caused by the admixture of earth, water, fire, air, and ethereal elements; second, the outer disintegrating powers of nature. So long as man struggles with his mortality, he is affected by the myriad mutations of heaven and earth.

Astrology is the study of man’s response to planetary stimuli. The stars have no conscious benevolence or animosity; they merely send forth positive and negative radiations. Of themselves, these do not help or harm humanity, but offer a lawful channel for the outward operation of cause-effect equilibriums which each man has set into motion in the past.

A child is born on that day and at that hour when the celestial rays are in mathematical harmony with his individual karma.

His horoscope is a challenging portrait, revealing his unalterable past and its probable future results. But the natal chart can be rightly interpreted only by men of intuitive wisdom: these are few.

The message boldly blazoned across the heavens at the moment of birth is not meant to emphasize fate — the result of past good and evil — but to arouse man’s will to escape from his universal thralldom. What he has done, he can undo. None other than himself was the instigator of the causes of whatever effects are now prevalent in his life. He can overcome any limitation, because he created it by his own actions in the first place, and because he has spiritual resources which are not subject to planetary pressure.

Superstitious awe of astrology makes one an automaton, slavishly dependent on mechanical guidance. The wise man defeats his planets — which is to say, his past — by transferring his allegiance from the creation to the Creator.

The more he realizes his unity with Spirit, the less he can be dominated by matter. The soul is ever-free; it is deathless because birthless. It cannot be regimented by stars.

Man is a soul, and has a body. When he properly places his sense of identity, he leaves behind all compulsive patterns. So long as he remains confused in his ordinary state of spiritual amnesia, he will know the subtle fetters of environmental law.

God is harmony; the devotee who attunes himself will never perform any action amiss. His activities will be correctly and naturally timed to accord with astrological law. After deep prayer and meditation he is in touch with his divine consciousness; there is no greater power than that inward protection.

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By Paramhansa Yogananda

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« Reply #8 on: Jan 08, 2017 01:37 am »

I've read those passages many times from Yogananda's autobiography. He is simply saying that there are good astrologers and there are bad ones. This is what you'd expect in any field I guess. But still you must realize that those reassuring words are not proof of astrology. It may in fact be that astrology has fallen into disrepute because of the lack of skilled practitioners. Yet, it seems there are plenty of people who would have the aptitude for it. An Einstein for example, or a Newton, or the like, would be totally capable of reviving the lost art - wouldn't you think?

It almost becomes a circular argument when you consider that it might be the other way around; the worlds mathematicians and scientists might not be studying it because it is doesn't measure up to modern scientific standards, rather than vice versa.

You must admire the fact that he admits, "it's not a matter of faith." Well, one should take up that mantle. But for most that I see, it seems it is precisely a matter of faith.
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 08, 2017 01:55 am »

I've read those passages many times from Yogananda's autobiography. He is simply saying that there are good astrologers and there are bad ones. This is what you'd expect in any field I guess. But still you must realize that those reassuring words are not proof of astrology. It may in fact be that astrology has fallen into disrepute because of the lack of skilled practitioners. Yet, it seems there are plenty of people who would have the aptitude for it. An Einstein for example, or a Newton, or the like, would be totally capable of reviving the lost art - wouldn't you think?

It almost becomes a circular argument when you consider that it might be the other way around; the worlds mathematicians and scientists might not be studying it because it is doesn't measure up to modern scientific standards, rather than vice versa.

You must admire the fact that he admits, "it's not a matter of faith." Well, one should take up that mantle. But for most that I see, it seems it is precisely a matter of faith.


No more then science is matter of faith. As a point in fact science changes and evolves over the years much more then astrology does. So can we really have faith in scientific findings when many of them become outdated with time or at the very least they are found to be unusable in the face of new discoveries. Are we bound by the discoveries of  science? Only the foolish are. There is little if no lasting evidence of the proof of science. A Newton or Einstein helping astrology may be like putting physicists in charge of the gym or psychology department at a university​. Leave them to their own fields and leave Carl Jung to his. We have seen the remarkable achievements of science in the atomic and hydrogen bombs. It is fortunate that astrology cannot be used in such a menacing way.
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 08, 2017 02:39 am »

No more then science is matter of faith.

Um, I think you're mistaken. You just contradicted the person you quoted from who said "the stellar science" was "never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true." So is science faith, or not? According to you science is a matter of faith. This is only according to you, though, and people who are averse to science mainly for religious reasons. Climate change, for example, is not understood to be a matter of faith by most people who are concerned about it. It is however, considered precisely that by those who would brush it off as a new age, hippy, pagan religious concern.

Science itself is a process of testing theories, noting the results, and refining theoretical models until predictions can be made reliably based on those models to account for the data.

Quote
As a point in fact science changes and evolves over the years much more then astrology does. So can we really have faith in scientific findings when many of them become outdated with time or at the very least they are found to be unusable in the face of new discoveries.

That's kind of the point of science. Science is not a thing, but an approach to truth claims and testing theoretical models experimentally. The fact that a field is open to revision, itself is one of the things that makes it a science. Distinctions between a scientific discipline and a religion or superstitious belief-system can definitely be seen in how amenable they are to new information, discoveries, and so on. Also, it seems pretty misleading to say that that we can't "have faith in scientific findings when many of them become outdated with time." If that were the case, our daily lives would be pretty unrecognizable. Your lights are going to go off tomorrow because science suddenly became "unusable."

I don't think you'll have much luck the debating tricks from religious apologists here. I'm pretty familiar with them. Let's just have a real discussion. So, I leave you with this. Is Astrology a science or not? If not, what would you say it is?
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 08, 2017 03:09 am »

I am not getting your view that I have contradicted anything. Sorry Brock it is not registering.
I agree with Sri  Yukteswar that the only way we can believes something is if it is true. Science is based on empiracal knowledge which is derived from the senses. Do you always trust your senses? Thus there is a matter of speculation. Truth is gained by inner realization not by outer confirmation. But alas the only truth that you and i can have some consenses on is that derived by our senses as long as one of us refuses to look into 'truth' as a empiracal study of their own. Since you or someone may be unwilling to look into the truth of astrology how can one know about its authenticity? It is mere speculation.

Yes science does change as you mentioned. It's truth is different tomorrow then today. And yes I believe there will come a day that even our lights will not be usable because there will be a much different source of light. Life will be quite unrecognizable as you have suggested. In this sense the DISCOVERIES will be unusable. I did not say that the word you appear to make sacred is unusable. Especially to people as yourself. It may be still be used as much as you like it and want to use it as part of your reality. Science is one reality just as the Bible is a reality for others. It is important to recognize this when encountering the realities of other people. Yet there are many people who refuse to talk from any place but their reality. So I say let them join a club...Become members and pay their dues. Just remember that not everyone wants to join those clubs pay the dues and accept the rules that their club has dictated.
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 08, 2017 03:55 am »

Okay, well since according to you "science does change" should we expect astrology to change also, if it's a science? But wasn't your original assertion that "science changes and evolves over the years much more then astrology does." You seem to compare astrology to science in one sentence and then claim that it is itself a science in another. I am just trying to make sense of what you are saying.

Another thing to point out is that science doesn't claim to be able to give capital T Truth. It may not even be possible for humans to know the truth about the universe in any ultimate metaphysical sense. Rather it is just a simple pragmatic approach to confirming theoretical models and making predictions based on those models which...I've said that already.

Finally, you should notice that I haven't said astrology isn't true or doesn't work. I have said that it is not considered to be a science by professional scientists in general. It is a fact that there is no astrology department at your local college or highschool. You can't dismiss that observation by saying that I haven't looked into it enough for myself. There are any number of things that I haven't bothered to "look into the truth of" because they simply aren't compelling enough for me to devote the time to it. For example, I have no interest desire to "look into the truth of" remote viewing. It sounds like psuedo-science but it's not impossible to conceive that it's real. So just try to understand that I'm not saying I know for a fact astrology isn't real or doesn't work I am only saying it is not considered a respectable science at the present time.

And frankly, if it is ever going to be considered one, it's going to need a lot better support than the arguments you have so far provided. Because you really haven't provided much of anything at all. I feel more doubtful about it being a science after reading your comments than I was before we even started.

Now let me just answer your question, "Do you always trust your senses?" I can't for the life of me figure out what this has to do with the conversation about astrology. This kind of doubt, sometimes called Cartesian doubt in philosophical discussion, is not new or something only people who believe in astrology think about. In philosophical discussion it also takes the form of "brain in a vat" thought experiments, and so forth.

I am just trying to show you that this is off-topic right now. For one thing, astrology itself relies on the senses. You have to observe the stars, do the calculations, and so on. Do you do this with no senses? You are using your senses every step of the way. Distinctions between inner and outer themselves rely on a spatial sense which would be impossible without the proper brain function.

You seem to be implying that astrology is a senseless activity. Anyway, let's leave the Cartesian doubt for another thread if you don't mind.

* Your post was updated while I was writing this.
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 08, 2017 06:22 am »

I think we can be grateful that somethings are not science. I am grateful that music is not a science yet it is obviously effective and probably will be around much longer then science and has been here way before it. So you see even though something may have varifiable data (as astrology does) does not make it wonderful. In many ways science gives things a dirty name. So I need not prove anything. Quite frankly being indoctrinated in science in college was one of the worst experiences I had. I have never met more stubbornly obstinate, dogmatic and ignorant people as I have scientists and fanatical Christians. Most of the ones I have met refuse to consider anything outside their circle of their clubs bias based on the way they choose to check or conduct all their examinations. Let us see....'We cannot accept anything that lies outside of the Bible'....Or; 'we cannot consider anything that is a psuedo science' or based on 'superstitious behaviors'. That's the kind of smugness and self indulgence I have witnessed.

It may be of interest to you that astrology classes are taught at universities and schools. One of my best friend's taught in that capacity. It may also be of more interest to you that the people who have tried to start programs on, for instance, parapsychological research have been stopped in universities by who would you think? Ah yes; our prejudicial scientists came to the rescue. They would not have 'psuedo science' at their universities...Even though the interest and backing has been strong.

If this had been a thread about science I may have given a more erudite response. Since it is not and many scientists like to apply their experiments on everything but themselves I will say this; the music I make is profoundly scientific and varifiable on all levels. Now would you like to listen....Ha ha!
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 08, 2017 06:45 pm »

You seem to be having a conversation, not with me, but with every person you've ever talked to on the subject. You also think I "appear to make sacred" the word science. I have done no such thing. Also, I have not written books called "The Holy Science", "The Science of Religion", etc. Do your teachers "appear to make sacred" the word science? It sure does get used in a lot of their book titles. Yogananda's whole selling point in the west had to do with making religion scientific. Are you really trying to give me a lecture on glorifying science?

Yes, it is interesting that astrology is taught in universities and schools. Can you share some links or more information about that? Thanks.


 
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