Balance and Opposing Views

[guest587]

In balance lies the whole secret of life ... All religions and philosophies have laid down certain principles such as kindness, truthfulness, forgiveness, but the mystic lays no stress on principles, he allows everyone to have his own principles, each according to his point of view and evolution. For example, there are two men, one is so merciful that he will not even harm an insect, and he could not draw a sword to kill another human being, while the other man for the sake of his people is content to fight and to die. These are two opposite points of view, and both are right in their way.

The Sufi therefore believes one should let each hold on to the principle suited to his evolution, but for himself he looks beyond the principle to that which is at the back of it, the balance. He realizes that what makes one lose balance is wrong, and what makes one keep it is right. The main point is not to act against one's principles. If the whole world says a thing is wrong, and you yourself feel that it is right, it is so, perhaps, for you.

The question of balance explains the problem of sin and virtue, and he who understands it is the master of life. There should be a balance in all our actions. To be either extreme or lukewarm is equally bad. There is a saying, 'Jack of all trades, and master of none.' This is very true, as there has been too little effort given, so that no one thing has been done thoroughly.

   from  https://wahiduddin.net/mv2/V/V_37.htm

[guest587]

Commentary by Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan:

We need today the religion of tolerance. In daily life we cannot all meet on the same ground, being so different, having such different capacities, states of evolution, and tasks. So if we had no tolerance, no desire to forgive, we could never bring harmony into our soul; for to live in the world is not easy and every moment of the day demands a victory. If there is anything to learn, it is tolerance.

   from  https://wahiduddin.net/mv2/X/X_5_1.htm


Tolerance is the first lesson of morals, and the next is forgiveness. A person who tolerates another through fear, through pride, from a sense of honor, or by the force of circumstances does not know tolerance. Tolerance is the control of the impulse of resistance by will. There is no virtue in tolerance which one practices because one is compelled by circumstances to tolerate, but tolerance is a consideration by which one overlooks the fault of another and gives no way in oneself to the impulse of resistance. A thoughtless person is naturally intolerant, but if a thoughtful person is intolerant, it shows his weakness. He has thought, but has no self-control. In the case of the thoughtless, he is not conscious of his fault, so it does not matter much to him, but a thoughtful person is to be pitied if he cannot control himself owing to the lack of will.

The activities in the worldly life cause many disturbances, and it is a constant jarring effect upon a sensitive soul. If one does not develop tolerance in nature, one is always subject to constant disturbances in life. To wish to live in the world and to be annoyed with its activities is like wanting to live in the sea and be constantly resisting its waves. This life of the world, full of different activities constantly working, has much in it to be despised, if one has a tendency to despise. But at the same time there is much to admire if one turns one's face from left to right. It is in our own power to choose the view of imperfection or the vision of perfection, and the difference is only looking down, or looking upwards. By a slight change of attitude in one's outlook on life one can make the world into heaven or hell. The more one tolerates, the stronger one becomes in this way. It is the tolerant who is thoughtful. And as thought becomes greater, one becomes more tolerant. The words of Christ, 'Resist not evil', teach tolerance.

   from  https://wahiduddin.net/mv2/XIII/XIII_19.htm


Tolerance is the sign of an evolved soul, for a soul shows the proof of its evolution in the degree of the tolerance it shows. The life in the lower creation shows the lack of tolerance. ... As one evolves spiritually so a person seems to rise above this natural tendency of intolerance, for the reason that he begins to see, besides himself and the second person, God; and he unites himself with the other person in God. ... But when a soul has evolved still more, tolerance becomes the natural thing for him. Because the highly evolved soul then begins to realize 'Another person is not separate from me, but the other person is myself. The separation is on the surface of life, but in the depth of life I and the other person are one.'

   from  https://wahiduddin.net/mv2/XIII/XIII_21.htm



   ~~~ In order to learn forgiveness, man must first learn tolerance.

[Jitendra Hy-do-u-no-us?]

I noticed you put in this subject at a different place than usual Eric; instead of in the regular Bowl of Saki. Occasionally you do so. I’m thinking you do so to draw attention to a certain topic. You have entitled this subject ‘ Balance and Opposing Views ‘. Is there not a balance when it also comes to the subject of tolerance as well? I mean are people entitled to be greedy and over bearing? Is it always good to allow others to take advantage of others? To let others trample on the values of those around them. I remember at one time you told me you decided you had enough of one such person exhibiting those character defects. Sometimes we do see people who treat us and others abusively and they are not about to change such behavior. We do at times also need to show strength of character by not letting them continue such character defects against their associates and perhaps even other nations at times. Opposing views are not always settled by tolerance. At times it is not possible to agree with people who engage in perpetuating the suffering of those of others around them because of their abusive behavior.

I have in many cases had to leave people and situations because people I’ve spent constructive time with, suddenly have certain hostile attitudes or they were so off about their views of myself or others around me that they showed no understanding in the situation and the issue was not necessarily tolerance or intolerance but strong attitudes of disdain or perhaps attraction that could not be reciprocated.

[Jitendra Hy-do-u-no-us?]

I was questioning whether to include my post on tolerance. I just put it on a thread about health responding to mccoy. Although, I believe it could have just as easily been included here. Suffice it to say that longevity often humbles us to the recognition that we have to tolerate even ourselves and the demands we place on ourselves for perfection.

[guest587]

Interesting Steve- perhaps the word here can also include forgiveness. Not just tolerance.

I wonder, is this "demand we place on ourselves for perfection" a unconscious motive(or, not always aware)? And, can the demands we place on ourselves be a driving factor for the judgements and disagreements we experience with others?

In other words, is subconsciously believing we must behave a certain way in order to experience life in a particular manner creating the conflict with others... ?

Of course, this is not a matter of is our thinking right or wrong. It's just recognizing we all have a motive driving us which might be responsible for the disagreements we find or assume. 

[guest587]

I noticed you put in this subject at a different place than usual Eric; instead of in the regular Bowl of Saki. Occasionally you do so. I’m thinking you do so to draw attention to a certain topic. You have entitled this subject ‘ Balance and Opposing Views ‘. Is there not a balance when it also comes to the subject of tolerance as well? I mean are people entitled to be greedy and over bearing? Is it always good to allow others to take advantage of others? To let others trample on the values of those around them. I remember at one time you told me you decided you had enough of one such person exhibiting those character defects. Sometimes we do see people who treat us and others abusively and they are not about to change such behavior. We do at times also need to show strength of character by not letting them continue such character defects against their associates and perhaps even other nations at times. Opposing views are not always settled by tolerance. At times it is not possible to agree with people who engage in perpetuating the suffering of those of others around them because of their abusive behavior.

I have in many cases had to leave people and situations because people I’ve spent constructive time with, suddenly have certain hostile attitudes or they were so off about their views of myself or others around me that they showed no understanding in the situation and the issue was not necessarily tolerance or intolerance but strong attitudes of disdain or perhaps attraction that could not be reciprocated.

Steve, I hear you.

A practice we might all benefit from, are we communicating head on- when such an impasse is being experienced? I have had to leave others too, and at some point, I try to make it known why that is. That doesn't always mean the other will acknowledge me.

I believe it is possible to address an issue as it arises, and maybe in a more creative way than I can presently understand. I know it takes courage too. I think the Cancerian quality in us would prefer to suppress our true feelings in favor of keeping peace or avoiding unpleasant confrontation. But, I have felt completely dead inside as a consequence... Is that keeping the peace? I don't think so.

The thing is, sometimes we don't immediately recognize what is really bothering us either.

We are a spiritual community first and foremost. I think that comes with recognizing others as unique, accepting differences or making peace with differences- and feeling ok to share with the hopes it might foster the family bond. Divine Brotherhood/Sisterhood.

It's easy to get caught up in one way of living, to the point where we can not tolerate those who might not be experiencing life in the manner we prefer. 

[Jitendra Hy-do-u-no-us?]

I noticed you put in this subject at a different place than usual Eric; instead of in the regular Bowl of Saki. Occasionally you do so. I’m thinking you do so to draw attention to a certain topic. You have entitled this subject ‘ Balance and Opposing Views ‘. Is there not a balance when it also comes to the subject of tolerance as well? I mean are people entitled to be greedy and over bearing? Is it always good to allow others to take advantage of others? To let others trample on the values of those around them. I remember at one time you told me you decided you had enough of one such person exhibiting those character defects. Sometimes we do see people who treat us and others abusively and they are not about to change such behavior. We do at times also need to show strength of character by not letting them continue such character defects against their associates and perhaps even other nations at times. Opposing views are not always settled by tolerance. At times it is not possible to agree with people who engage in perpetuating the suffering of those of others around them because of their abusive behavior.

I have in many cases had to leave people and situations because people I’ve spent constructive time with, suddenly have certain hostile attitudes or they were so off about their views of myself or others around me that they showed no understanding in the situation and the issue was not necessarily tolerance or intolerance but strong attitudes of disdain or perhaps attraction that could not be reciprocated.

Steve, I hear you.

A practice we might all benefit from, are we communicating head on- when such an impasse is being experienced? I have had to leave others too, and at some point, I try to make it known why that is. That doesn't always mean the other will acknowledge me.

I believe it is possible to address an issue as it arises, and maybe in a more creative way than I can presently understand. I know it takes courage too. I think the Cancerian quality in us would prefer to suppress our true feelings in favor of keeping peace or avoiding unpleasant confrontation. But, I have felt completely dead inside as a consequence... Is that keeping the peace? I don't think so.

The thing is, sometimes we don't immediately recognize what is really bothering us either.

We are a spiritual community first and foremost. I think that comes with recognizing others as unique, accepting differences or making peace with differences- and feeling ok to share with the hopes it might foster the family bond. Divine Brotherhood/Sisterhood.

It's easy to get caught up in one way of living, to the point where we can not tolerate those who might not be experiencing life in the manner we prefer. 

Yes my experience is that an impasse is a result of hitting head on issues between two or more people. I have no problems doing that, and then realizing we must back off to maintain peace. We are mainly a spiritual community. I am not, nor have I felt that way about you Eric. What I do find is that you support and defend people who attempt to force their values on others. I would not have known it until you respond to my comments. I am merely responding to your question here. Not hoping to prolong our differences when in so many other ways we are the same in our lives and interests. In the case of Marjorie Green and Donald Trump I find that they are not able to tolerate the views and the consensus of the majority of Americans, so they attempt to force their view and opinions on others. If you choose to defend them Eric that is your opinion. I’ve questioned your mud slinging to defend them. It reminds me so much of the mudslinging Trump used all his presidency. It appears to have rubbed off on you.

[guest587]

Dear Steve,

I think it's fair to say, we do not understand one another.

I am happy you do not want to focus on our differences, or at least in a way that would keep our friendship cold and at a distance. One day, when the relationship is secured in Divine Brotherhood- our differences will be a thing to be celebrated. It doesn't mean we take on the things we disagree with, it only means we acknowledge the quirkiness of a separate personality. The spiritual devotee recognizes the individual entity as belonging to God. I believe if we are secure in ourselves, we can start to see things clearly or not take offense to others. But that security is not so easily won, especially for one looking to experience liberation or self Realization. 

I do acknowledge the possibility of a karmic tie between us. I also hope everything is alright in your world. I hope it's more than just alright.

Today I saw a mother and her daughter so happy, and it made me extremely happy just being in their presence to witness it.

I think continually harping on differences only strengthens discord. If we acknowledge we do not understand one another, then it is fair to say what we think we know is based on limited information and skewed opinions which are exclusively geared towards our present attitudes and personality. It's a practice for all of us here at the forum to remind ourselves we do not know the people sitting on the other side of these screens, and to choose not to get caught up in all the things we disagree with.

Again, I am not saying what is right or what is wrong. Each personality is right in its own, each belonging to God. It's all life experience, even your deductions- they are still meant to serve you. Right or wrong.

For those who wish to be peacemakers or experience the lightness of pure spirit- it is important we do not confine others to our limited views. It's a practice we must take even outside the forum.

I love my Mom, I love my Father. But as an unenlightened soul, I am so identified as Eric that I can not say I understand them. I am still discovering as Eric. I might have ideas about my family, and chances are they are good hunches... But I do not know all of what my Mother or Father have been through, to be who they are today. Including, what past life incarnations they have experienced. But I do believe I chose to be born into this family line, as an opportunity to develop my own desires and gather unique understanding via life experience.

I also believe I chose to be a member here, not because I think I should debate politics or dress codes with you. But because I enjoy the freedom and creativity in expression. That means disagreeing at times over certain issues our quirky personalities are attached to. So if it needs to be said, I may not agree with everything you post- but I support your right to a different opinion. I also support the right to express disagreement. And if this hurdle is a karmic pattern of ours, I am going to repeat once more an expression I remember you sharing with me from the time I first joined here. To me, this is a wise expression. It's simple, and it shows an open and light hearted nature.

"Variety is the spice of Life."

May we cut our karmic ties in a way that allows us to reside in divine realization. Amen! 

[Jitendra Hy-do-u-no-us?]

In balance lies the whole secret of life ... All religions and philosophies have laid down certain principles such as kindness, truthfulness, forgiveness, but the mystic lays no stress on principles, he allows everyone to have his own principles, each according to his point of view and evolution. For example, there are two men, one is so merciful that he will not even harm an insect, and he could not draw a sword to kill another human being, while the other man for the sake of his people is content to fight and to die. These are two opposite points of view, and both are right in their way.

   from  https://wahiduddin.net/mv2/V/V_37.htm

I just wish that such people as Marjorie Green and Donald Trump as well as Vladimir Putin and Xi would allow people to have their own philosophies and principles, but they won’t. They all attempt to force their opinions and views on others. Or are attempting to live out fantasies of some past glory of a country that can easily be relegated to a bygone period of conquering others which has dissolved in the pages of history. This was your original theme of this thread Eric, that is quite apparent in the quote in your first statement of this thread; stated again above. Both Trump and Marjorie Green represent a point of view that continues to mudsling against anyone with differences, then their own political views.

I agree with your assessment above , and in war a man or woman that would not draw their sword can be for instance a paramedic. And someone who has the physic or aggressive qualities to fight may take on a warrior role during their life. But someone who chooses to ‘cut the heads’ off of others to make their own height or position appear higher, should be recognized for the lack of moral qualifications they have to be in any leadership role. Do such people allow others to be “both right in their own way”?

[guest587]

"Thinking is a wonderful tool that allows us to plan for the future, anticipate, and solve problems. But in order to live a balanced life and not waste our time worrying, we need to learn how to handle our challenges and take in the world around us. Sometimes the greatest inspirations come when we stop thinking and open our minds to a deeper stream of experience."

Mark Evans, Ph.D.
Staff Psychologist
https://counseling.uoregon.edu/how-stop-obsessing